Mass Homelessness Soon?

[Anna B 1,401]

My first house was a tatty terrace, which we did up slowly, and I loved it. Smashing, friendly neighbours too. But society wasn't so divided back in the 70's as it is now, and people could get on if we wanted to. We had prospects. Not sure that's true any more.

3 hours ago, tzijlstra said:

The simple fact is: There are affordable properties (for sale) - they are just not necessarily where people 'want to live'. You can buy a two-up, two-down in Goldthorpe for around 50k (mortgage of around £200 a month... try and rent for that) and be in the city in  under 40 minutes by train. 

 

So what is required is that local/regional governments work hard to make these 'undesirable areas' more interesting for people to live. Start investing in local amenities, transport links and employment opportunities, that is what will unlock the housing market, not just continuing to build in desirable areas for inflated prices.

 

Just to pre-empt the question: Yes, I would live in Goldthorpe or other 'downtrodden' places if my budget asked that of me. If I made 14k a year? I'd rather start on the property ladder in a 50k property than throw £500 (that I can't miss!) at a rental property.

 

If you can't get a mortgage, and many people can't, you're confined to renting from a private landlord.

He'll buy a house like the one you mention, tarte it up a bit, then rent it out for £400+ a month.

As far as I'm aware, a single person can only get enough on Universal Credit to cover the rent on one room in house.

[tzijlstra 11]

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

 

I don't think it's out of fashion so much as not always feasable. Can a person on a 0 hours contract get a mortgage? (genuine question.) Even on £14,000 I'm not sure mortgage companies would be keen. I don't think it's snobbery that makes people think twice about bad areas, but crime, drugs, poor schools, horrendous neighbours with mental health issues. etc. I don't think these problems were  rife in the 70s/80s. And I do know that most people in these areas are fine, but it's a bit of a lottery. If I had young children, particularly boys I'd be concerned.

 

 

Even if you can't get a mortgage, you can rent there for under £400, still a lot less than most places in Sheffield. Also, 14k is half the median income for salaried folks in Sheffield.

 

I have to take affront to the idea that crime, drugs, poor schools and mental health issues didn't exist in the seventies/eighties though. In fact, I'd say that is typical of this day and age: Because we talk about it more using 't interweb, we see it more. But I sure as hell had to run for my life when the local drug dealer didn't like I walked in on his deal in the 80s and I've lived through and seen the poor schools, crime and mental health issues. 

 

The only way to escape that life, for me, was to work hard and gain qualifications so I could climb up the ladder. We can debate whether that ladder is right or not, but not whether it is possible to climb it, because it is, for everybody.  

[Westie1889 0]

Affordable housing is a fallacy, it means a cheaper house on a more expensive overall development but doesn’t mean it’s affordable.

Only housing associations offer anything like affordable housing.

I know  someone locally whose son bought 50% ownership on a 2 bed apartment in South London on the government scheme, that 50% share cost him £500k! 
I’m a businessman and all for private enterprise but the housing market is one giant monopoly between the developers and banks. 
The fewer properties they build the higher their margins and profits the following years, as a lack of supply drives up the value on land, properties and mortgages on those properties.

Nothing other than government intervention through building or financing the building of homes will sort the issue.

The market is broken and doesn’t operate as a true market. 
It’s also true that people’s aspirations are very different,  young people often have higher standards of where they want to live but lack the funds to make that happen and Goldthorpe isn’t going to cut it for many of them so they would prefer to rent in the city centre for the lifestyle it offers.

Like many people I don’t  get why successive governments don’t spend hugely on housing as it would guarantee them election wins as the council house sales did Thatcher.

The Treasury could even make money as it can borrow at a lower rate than the banks so could fund this and profit, unfortunately they are too entrenched in promoting the London based service economy (banking) and GDP growth rather than focusing on doing something worthwhile socially that also makes money for the country.
 

 

 

 

[Robin-H 11]

4 hours ago, Anna B said:

 

I don't think it's out of fashion so much as not always feasable. Can a person on a 0 hours contract get a mortgage? (genuine question.) Even on £14,000 I'm not sure mortgage companies would be keen. I don't think it's snobbery that makes people think twice about bad areas, but crime, drugs, poor schools, horrendous neighbours with mental health issues. etc. I don't think these problems were  rife in the 70s/80s. And I do know that most people in these areas are fine, but it's a bit of a lottery. If I had young children, particularly boys I'd be concerned.

 

 

Yes, they can. 

 

 https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-7443091/HSBC-makes-easier-mortgage-zero-hours-contract-bank-relaxes-application-rules.html

 

And you don't think crime, drugs, poor schools, or horrendous neighbours were problems in the 70s/80s!!?

[Longcol 597]

5 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

And you don't think crime, drugs, poor schools, or horrendous neighbours were problems in the 70s/80s!!?

In my experience, nothing like as prevalent as today - certainly not until the latter half of the 80's until the effects of mass unemployment kicked in.

[ECCOnoob 1,020]

2 hours ago, Longcol said:

In my experience, nothing like as prevalent as today - certainly not until the latter half of the 80's until the effects of mass unemployment kicked in.

The 60s were filled with gang activities, attacks and knife crime. In fact I remember reading one newspaper article which stated that more people carried a knife in 60s than do on the streets today. The 70s were filled with a range of racism, homophobia, civil disobedience and other hate crimes. Football hooliganism was rampant as was drug use and the beginnings of substance abuse which led into the 80s.

 

Same as always with these discussions some people go all nostalgic for the so-called "good old days" and get stuck in that rose tinted blindness.

 

If we really want to be talking about the big difference between then and now,  Its that now a crime takes place and within seconds we all hear about it thanks to the wonder of social media.... with of course the caveat that reporting of it is accompanied with a load of gossip, rumour, speculation, opinion, exaggeration, scaremongering and falsehoods which is all amplified further by the time it hits the TV news and papers.

 

Back on the subject at hand, Irrelevant or whether it's 1960 or 2020 the same principle applies.  There will be good and bad people in every area. There will always be the popular areas which fuel house prices against less popular areas which are cheaper. There will always be those who have a big house fully paid vs those who have a small flat which they rent.

 

Despite the fantasies brought up by some people on this forum - we never have and never will have a fully equal society where everyone has the same.  Life does not work like that.  

 

Unless you are one of the very privileged whom get inherited property, we all have to start somewhere.

 

I started in a tiny flat as a rental and then scrimped and saved my way up to buy my first old knackered terraced  house. That was then followed by move into a bigger house closer to the city as I developed my career.

 

50 years earlier my parents did exactly the same thing.... they started off in a rented terraced in area they didn't particularly like and as and when they could and the money allowed they took the risk to move up the ladder. As with so many other people it wasn't always good times. They nearly destituted themselves trying to survive the housing crash and the huge interest rates that shot up, they had to downsize at one point before eventually managing to get back to where they wanted to be.

 

Nobody said it's easy.

Edited November 3, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[tinfoilhat 11]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

The 60s were filled with gang activities, attacks and knife crime. In fact I remember reading one newspaper article which stated that more people carried a knife in 60s than do on the streets today.

It reads like you’re equating carrying a knife in the 60s and knife crime. Of course more people carried knives in the 60s - Sheffield was churning out thousands of pocket knives a day, where do you think they ended up if not people’s pockets? Both my grandfathers carried one (probably yours too) - I’ve got one dated to early 50s that you won at a fair. I was given one for my 10th birthday in the 80s, mother didn’t bat an eyelid. If I gave my nephew one for his 10th my sister would string me up. Difference now is that young men (and younger) are using knives to kill people. I can’t be arsed to look at figures but I’d wager there were less stabbings in 5e 60s than now.

 

Anyway, housing. We need more, arguably more smaller starter homes than streets full of “executive” ones.

 

 

[Anna B 1,401]

3 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Nonsense.

 

The 60s were filled with gang activities, attacks and knife crime. In fact I remember reading one newspaper article which stated that more people carried a knife in 60s than do on the streets today. The 70s were filled with a range of racism,  homophobia, civil disobedience and other hate crimes. Football hooliganism was rampant as was drug use and the beginnings of substance abuse which led into the 80s.

 

Same as always with these discussions some people go all nostalgic for the so-called "good old days" and get stuck in that rose tinted blindness.

 

If we really want to be talking about the big difference between then and now,  Its that now a crime takes place and within seconds we all hear about it it thanks for the wonder of social media.... with of course the caveat that reporting of it is accompanied with a load of gossip, rumour, speculation, opinion, exaggeration, scaremongering and falsehoods which is all amplified further by the time it hits the TV news and papers.

 

Back on the subject at hand, Irrelevant or whether it's 1960 or 2020 the same principle applies.  There will be good and bad people in every area. There will always be the popular areas which fuel house prices against less popular areas which are cheaper. There will always be those who have a big house fully paid vs those who have a small flat which they rent.

 

Despite the fantasies brought up by some people on this forum - we never have and never will have a fully equal society where everyone has the same.  Life does not work like that.  

 

Unless you are one of the very privileged whom get inherited property, we all have to start somewhere.

 

I started in a tiny flat as a rental and then scrimped and saved my way up to buy my first old knackered terraced  house. That was then followed by move into a bigger house closer to the city as I developed my career.

 

50 years earlier my parents did exactly the same thing.... they started off in a rented terraced in area they didn't particularly like and as and when they could and the money allowed they took the risk to move up the ladder. As with so many other people it wasn't always good times. They nearly destituted themselves trying to survive the housing crash and the huge interest rates that shot up, they had to downsize at one point before eventually managing to get back to where they wanted to be.

 

Nobody said it's easy.

I have to disagree. 

I grew up on a council estate in the 50s and 60s. Respectability was all, politeness encouraged, police were respected (and feared) and I can honestly say I never saw any drug abuse, drug running  etc. in those days.  People had respect for the law and family, and hope and aspirations, which with the help of the welfare state, were within their grasp. With hard work and ability, it was possible to achieve something with their lives. Crikey, with the likes of people like Twiggy and the Beatles it was actually cool to be working class in the 60s! The welfare state made ordinary people feel valued and they garnered them self respect and aspirations.

I went to a good local primary school, was taught good moral values where  the worse  thing that happened was getting caught smoking behind the bike sheds, or getting drunk at a party. I passed the 11+  which was a passport to a better life in those days and moved on.

My first house was a cheap terrace house in a not very good area, but again people were law abiding, caring, decent and happy.

 

By the time I was bringing up my children in the late 70s and 80s we'd moved up the social scale a bit, and I admit I was concerned to keep them safe from recreational drugs, and was glad we were not living in an area where crime and drug abuse was known to be on the rise.

But it was in the 80s when I think things really took off, not in a good way. In Thatcher's Britain we began to see major unemployment, social unrest and problems with the social divide; the successful 'Yuppies' and the underachieving 'skivers' on the scrapheap thanks to unemployment.  Drugs and drug running became an industry with all its attendant problems, and for some was the only option for a carreer choice. We began to see people as winners or losers and by hook or by crook we had to be on the winning side, because with the rolling back of the welfare state, to be on the other side was pretty unthinkable. So selfishness, and every man for himself mentallity takes hold.

Anxiety takes the place of security. 

 

And this has remained ever since. This anxiety and insecurity is not imagined. People are insecure for good reason: lack of jobs, lack of job security, lack of prospects, lack of healthcare and above all lack of hope. Without a decent welfare state people are flying without a safety net which bring about very well founded fears  -  of debt, homelessness, ill health, disability, lack of care, old age. 10 years of austerity has exacerbated all these worries and shown what a callous culture we all reside in.   

 

Mental illness, depression and suicide are on the increase, and no wonder. This is what the 'Greed is good' culture of the last 40 years has brought us to. It needs to be taken seriously and swiftly reversed.

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Anna B

[tzijlstra 11]

10 hours ago, Anna B said:

I have to disagree. 

I grew up on a council estate in the 50s and 60s. Respectability was all, politeness encouraged, police were respected (and feared) and I can honestly say I never saw any drug abuse, drug running  etc. in those days.  People had respect for the law and family, and hope and aspirations, which with the help of the welfare state, were within their grasp. With hard work and ability, it was possible to achieve something with their lives. Crikey, with the likes of people like Twiggy and the Beatles it was actually cool to be working class in the 60s! The welfare state made ordinary people feel valued and they garnered them self respect and aspirations.

I went to a good local primary school, was taught good moral values where  the worse  thing that happened was getting caught smoking behind the bike sheds, or getting drunk at a party. I passed the 11+  which was a passport to a better life in those days and moved on.

My first house was a cheap terrace house in a not very good area, but again people were law abiding, caring, decent and happy.

 

By the time I was bringing up my children in the late 70s and 80s we'd moved up the social scale a bit, and I admit I was concerned to keep them safe from recreational drugs, and was glad we were not living in an area where crime and drug abuse was known to be on the rise.

But it was in the 80s when I think things really took off, not in a good way. In Thatcher's Britain we began to see major unemployment, social unrest and problems with the social divide; the successful 'Yuppies' and the underachieving 'skivers' on the scrapheap thanks to unemployment.  Drugs and drug running became an industry with all its attendant problems, and for some was the only option for a carreer choice. We began to see people as winners or losers and by hook or by crook we had to be on the winning side, because with the rolling back of the welfare state, to be on the other side was pretty unthinkable. So selfishness, and every man for himself mentallity takes hold.

Anxiety takes the place of security. 

 

And this has remained ever since. This anxiety and insecurity is not imagined. People are insecure for good reason: lack of jobs, lack of job security, lack of prospects, lack of healthcare and above all lack of hope. Without a decent welfare state people are flying without a safety net which bring about very well founded fears  -  of debt, homelessness, ill health, disability, lack of care, old age. 10 years of austerity has exacerbated all these worries and shown what a callous culture we all reside in.   

 

Mental illness, depression and suicide are on the increase, and no wonder. This is what the 'Greed is good' culture of the last 40 years has brought us to. It needs to be taken seriously and swiftly reversed.

 

 

 

Anna, you are looking at your past through rose tinted glasses. All data points towards a better standard of life for people of low income. If you were on a council estate in the fifties you were lucky that you didn't live in one of the back-to-back slums like at Park Hill or Tinsley where people still had to use outhouses and crime and alcoholism was rife. Never mind domestic abuse (which wasn't reported as the police didn't bother) and high levels of child mortality. 

 

Unemployment was low because so many had lost their lives and because building up the country required a lot of workers, but come the eighties and things really turned into a mess in the UK, over 10% unemployment nationally and far higher in specific areas. There is a reason that drugs became equivalent to 'escape reality' in the eighties with the advent of the rave scene. Never mind the punk scene from a decade before.

[alchresearch 214]

10 hours ago, Anna B said:

I grew up on a council estate in the 50s and 60s. Respectability was all, politeness encouraged, police were respected (and feared) and I can honestly say I never saw any drug abuse, drug running  etc. in those days. 

 

Surely it all depends on the estate.   My grandparents lived on an estate at Stradbroke which was council estate heaven compared to the Manor or Badger estates at the same time.

[Anna B 1,401]

16 minutes ago, tzijlstra said:

Anna, you are looking at your past through rose tinted glasses. All data points towards a better standard of life for people of low income. If you were on a council estate in the fifties you were lucky that you didn't live in one of the back-to-back slums like at Park Hill or Tinsley where people still had to use outhouses and crime and alcoholism was rife. Never mind domestic abuse (which wasn't reported as the police didn't bother) and high levels of child mortality. 

 

Unemployment was low because so many had lost their lives and because building up the country required a lot of workers, but come the eighties and things really turned into a mess in the UK, over 10% unemployment nationally and far higher in specific areas. There is a reason that drugs became equivalent to 'escape reality' in the eighties with the advent of the rave scene. Never mind the punk scene from a decade before.

Well, I think we agree that the 80s was the turning point.

Thatcher's Britain brought about the culture that we live in today. Winners and Losers. Heaven help you if you are on the losing side...

And 10 years of Austerity has  made it so much worse.

[nightrider 13]

11 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

It reads like you’re equating carrying a knife in the 60s and knife crime. Of course more people carried knives in the 60s - Sheffield was churning out thousands of pocket knives a day, where do you think they ended up if not people’s pockets? Both my grandfathers carried one (probably yours too) - I’ve got one dated to early 50s that you won at a fair. I was given one for my 10th birthday in the 80s, mother didn’t bat an eyelid. If I gave my nephew one for his 10th my sister would string me up. Difference now is that young men (and younger) are using knives to kill people. I can’t be arsed to look at figures but I’d wager there were less stabbings in 5e 60s than now.

 

I wouldn't be so sure:

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/violent-britain-worse-60s-1656306

 

It's easy to think everything was better in the past, but I am not convinced it was the reality. Both my elderly parents grew up dodging the luftwaffe in the 1940's, they almost lost their house in the early 90's when interest rates skyrocketed.

 

My neighbour remembers when the terraced houses we live in did not have indoor toilets.

4 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Well, I think we agree that the 80s was the turning point.

Thatcher's Britain brought about the culture that we live in today. Winners and Losers. Heaven help you if you are on the losing side...

And 10 years of Austerity has  made it so much worse.

The reality is though that this is what we want as a whole. We repeatedly voted in Tory governments - people are happy with the low taxes and lack of welfare state, underfunded healthcare etc. Not many are willing to pay the tax needed to pay for this (as they do in many European countries).