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South Yorkshire Bus Service Needs Improvement

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15 hours ago, busdriver1 said:

That may be the view in the ivory tower, however in the real world there are areas where this happens daily and in some cases ALL day that just get ignored because they are politically sensitive areas. I even had a conversation with one about this and he said quite clearly "no way will I go to xxxxx, I would get roasted and the fines would not get paid anyway".

Ah, this old chestnut.

 

Having been very closely involved in SCC’s parking operations, I can tell you that there’s no such thing as a “politically sensitive” area. In many years of experience I have never experienced or heard of politicians in Sheffield telling Parking Services where to and where not to enforce. They will have some involvement in setting priorities, which are usually expressed in policy documents like a parking strategy, which is entirely correct and as you would expect.

 

Parking Services have their priorities and their enforcement resources are deployed accordingly. The CEO’s on the street are given specific areas to patrol and don’t vary from those unless told to do so. Which is exactly what you would expect.
 

If you are speaking to a CEO, they often don’t know the full picture, you need to speak to the managers. Parking Services are very open and transparent about where they enforce and why. If you ask them, they can give you the figures of how many penalties are actually issued. Just drop them a line and ask them if you really want to know the facts rather than relying on heresay. 

 

The fines not getting paid aspect is a problem with the legal framework and most enforcing authorities have the same issue, for example in London, people with diplomatic immunity rack up huge numbers of penalties which don’t get paid. The people who are getting these penalties usually understand the legal position and just ignore them.
 

What would you have the enforcement authorities do? They have finite resources, should they use them issuing pointless fines to people they know will ignore them and continue to offend, or concentrate resources elsewhere, where they actually make a difference?

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1 hour ago, RollingJ said:

Not surprised about those study findings - imagine wanting to go somewhere where there was one bus every alternate Tuesday in a month.

 

You can't convince some of your second point, unfortunately.

No form of public transport is going to suit everyone for every journey.

 

People see free bus services in other places like Manchester City Centre and think we ought to have them here. But, they often don’t understand how these things are paid for, which is often contributions from developers arising from planning applications, which is fine if your city has lots of development happening and you can demand that level of contribution and you have the political will to use the money to provide that kind of service.

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1 hour ago, Bigal1 said:

Agreed but not S Yorks. I am guessing that soon we will hear an announcement of a review of bus services in the area as it is now a year since the last one has been published and is keeping the window open to aid ventilation in the mayors office (stops it gathering dust)

 

I wonder if we has a full time mayor.....................................

The government are typical Londoners/Southerners, they think anywhere North of the Watford Gap's on another Planet! :loopy: 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

No form of public transport is going to suit everyone for every journey.

 

People see free bus services in other places like Manchester City Centre and think we ought to have them here. But, they often don’t understand how these things are paid for, which is often contributions from developers arising from planning applications, which is fine if your city has lots of development happening and you can demand that level of contribution and you have the political will to use the money to provide that kind of service.

I agree and not just the funding but it has to serve a real need

 

One of the best free bus services in the UK until Covid was the free zone around Heathrow which offered passengers and visitors a real benefit .

1 minute ago, Mr Allen said:

The government are typical Londoners/Southerners, they think anywhere North of the Watford Gap's on another Planet! :loopy: 

 

 

Don't get you at all this is nothing to do with Government

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17 hours ago, Planner1 said:

 

Trams are proven to attract mode shift from the car.

 

Proof? 

 

Have the number of cars coming into Sheffield reduced because of the trams? 

 

Are trams popular because

a) People like to travel in them

b) The parking is cheaper than parking in city centre

 

Dont get me wrong, i like the tram, they are more reliable than buses, generally cleaner and if I lived on a route I would consider using them, but in Sheffield I think you would struggle to prove that people have switched from car to tram in high enough numbers to warrant the running costs of them

 

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15 minutes ago, sheffbag said:

Proof? 

 

Have the number of cars coming into Sheffield reduced because of the trams? 

 

Are trams popular because

a) People like to travel in them

b) The parking is cheaper than parking in city centre

 

Dont get me wrong, i like the tram, they are more reliable than buses, generally cleaner and if I lived on a route I would consider using them, but in Sheffield I think you would struggle to prove that people have switched from car to tram in high enough numbers to warrant the running costs of them

 

Have a look at this study commissioned by the Urban Transport Group. Page 34 onwards has the relevant info, including findings from Sheffield ( 20% of riders were car users before).  Their figures show that on weekdays, 20% of tram passengers used to travel by car and at weekends it rises to 50%. 
 

Page 39 onwards covers comparison of tram schemes to Quality Bus schemes ( there are several in Sheffield) which typically attract 4 to 6 % mode shift from car use. 
 

It’s not so much the running costs that are the problem, it’s the huge capital cost of installing a new tram system or line. A single new line in Edinburgh cost £776m. They’re looking to install tram lines in West Yorkshire and the cost could be anything from one to three billion, depending on how many lines they go with for the first phase of development.

 

However, there’s good evidence that tram systems do attract inward investment and they provide a highly visible, fairly permanent, statement of that city’s commitment to providing good public transport.

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20 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

Have a look at this study commissioned by the Urban Transport Group. Page 34 onwards has the relevant info, including findings from Sheffield ( 20% of riders were car users before).  Their figures show that on weekdays, 20% of tram passengers used to travel by car and at weekends it rises to 50%. 
 

Page 39 onwards covers comparison of tram schemes to Quality Bus schemes ( there are several in Sheffield) which typically attract 4 to 6 % mode shift from car use. 
 

It’s not so much the running costs that are the problem, it’s the huge capital cost of installing a new tram system or line. A single new line in Edinburgh cost £776m. They’re looking to install tram lines in West Yorkshire and the cost could be anything from one to three billion, depending on how many lines they go with for the first phase of development.

 

However, there’s good evidence that tram systems do attract inward investment and they provide a highly visible, fairly permanent, statement of that city’s commitment to providing good public transport.

So your evidence is a 16 year old paper which uses data which is now 21 years old and was originally commissioned to support Leeds bid for a light rail network (looking at the content of the paper and also remembering when Leeds first attempted to get funding)

 

I would place as much impartiality on its content as I would the recent paper by SCR about the PTE which recommended that it takes over the PTE which has been the plan all along

 

Again i dont disagree that for people who live on tram routes or use them to travel on, a tram i a good thing but if the only evidence you have is data from 21 years ago when it comes to Sheffield then it doesn't really support the view. Again i would ask, has traffic along the routes reduced as a factor of the tram or are people travelling by car, parking up and then using the tram?

Edited by sheffbag

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1 hour ago, sheffbag said:

Proof? 

 

Have the number of cars coming into Sheffield reduced because of the trams? 

 

Are trams popular because

a) People like to travel in them

b) The parking is cheaper than parking in city centre

 

Dont get me wrong, i like the tram, they are more reliable than buses, generally cleaner and if I lived on a route I would consider using them, but in Sheffield I think you would struggle to prove that people have switched from car to tram in high enough numbers to warrant the running costs of them

 

I do not live on or near a tram route.

1 My car route  across Infirmary Road/Penistone Road improved immensely.

2 My bus journey along West Steet/Glossop Road improved immensely.

3 My walking routes are easier, cleaner and safer,

 

Every person today not behind a steering wheel is doing their bit to help everyone.

Tomorrow they might be behind a steering  wheel. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sheffbag said:

So your evidence is a 16 year old paper which uses data which is now 21 years old and was originally commissioned to support Leeds bid for a light rail network (looking at the content of the paper and also remembering when Leeds first attempted to get funding)

 

I would place as much impartiality on its content as I would the recent paper by SCR about the PTE which recommended that it takes over the PTE which has been the plan all along

 

Again i dont disagree that for people who live on tram routes or use them to travel on, a tram i a good thing but if the only evidence you have is data from 21 years ago when it comes to Sheffield then it doesn't really support the view. Again i would ask, has traffic along the routes reduced as a factor of the tram or are people travelling by car, parking up and then using the tram?

Do your own searching if you’re that interested.

 

I’ve pointed you to a study that brings together evidence collected across several systems in different cities. Before / after studies get done when a new system is introduced, but they are not done on an ongoing basis anywhere.

 

I think you perhaps have an unrealistic expectation on the amount of transport data collected by local transport authorities. There is no ongoing study of driver behaviour on / around tram routes here or anywhere else.

 

In Sheffield, the only consistent long term traffic data set has been an annual cordon count of traffic coming into and out of the city which is done on one day per year. I’m not even sure that it’s done anymore. Local councils don’t have the money to do transport data collection on that scale anymore.

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3 hours ago, Planner1 said:

No form of public transport is going to suit everyone for every journey.

 

People see free bus services in other places like Manchester City Centre and think we ought to have them here. But, they often don’t understand how these things are paid for, which is often contributions from developers arising from planning applications, which is fine if your city has lots of development happening and you can demand that level of contribution and you have the political will to use the money to provide that kind of service.

You hit the nail on the head with 'political will'.  I don't suppose many people are aware of just how close we came to free public transport across South Yorkshire prior to Thatcher's deregulation debacle.  South Yorkshire politicians of the day, mainly Labour of course, generally supported the then cheap fare policy, which was intended to become free when the administration of the collection of fares became more costly than the income generated.  Your point on contributions from high levels of development and planning applications may well be relevant but this income is a form of tax and like most taxes they end up in the treasury pot, which is then spent by the government.  If it was the 'political will' of the government to spend some of this pot to provide free public transport, it would happen; just as Clem Atlee decided to spend some of the pot to provide free health care and created the NHS, and did Arthur Balfour to provide free education with the various Education Acts of the early 20th century.   It all boils down to what kind of society we want to live in; one that benefits all or one that serves the self-interest of a few? a question that has been posed for centuries!

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2 minutes ago, AKAMD said:

You hit the nail on the head with 'political will'.  I don't suppose many people are aware of just how close we came to free public transport across South Yorkshire prior to Thatcher's deregulation debacle.  South Yorkshire politicians of the day, mainly Labour of course, generally supported the then cheap fare policy, which was intended to become free when the administration of the collection of fares became more costly than the income generated.  Your point on contributions from high levels of development and planning applications may well be relevant but this income is a form of tax and like most taxes they end up in the treasury pot, which is then spent by the government.  If it was the 'political will' of the government to spend some of this pot to provide free public transport, it would happen; just as Clem Atlee decided to spend some of the pot to provide free health care and created the NHS, and did Arthur Balfour to provide free education with the various Education Acts of the early 20th century.   It all boils down to what kind of society we want to live in; one that benefits all or one that serves the self-interest of a few? a question that has been posed for centuries!

So, seeing as your taxes pay for NHS/Education, you want to pay more for 'Free Transport' - which is a misnomer, because as has been pointed out - it costs.

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12 minutes ago, RollingJ said:

So, seeing as your taxes pay for NHS/Education, you want to pay more for 'Free Transport' - which is a misnomer, because as has been pointed out - it costs.

And health care and education doesn't?

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