The Labour Party - Part 2

[26b-6 16]

16 hours ago, hauxwell said:

Being excellent at the despatch box didn’t help Starmer win the  Hartlepool by-election. As you said in the, Israel-Palestinian Conflict topic, he’ll sort things out with his fancy foot work, personally I think the mans flat footed, so convince me otherwise.

 

I’m not faithful to any political party, so you tell me what his policies are for the future of this country then I will decide if he is worth supporting.

Nobody really knows that's the great mystery...

It appears to me Kier Starmer is to politics what Fred West was to patio laying...

 

 

[Baron99 794]

22 hours ago, hauxwell said:

Being excellent at the despatch box didn’t help Starmer win the  Hartlepool by-election. As you said in the, Israel-Palestinian Conflict topic, he’ll sort things out with his fancy foot work, personally I think the mans flat footed, so convince me otherwise.

 

I’m not faithful to any political party, so you tell me what his policies are for the future of this country then I will decide if he is worth supporting.

I wonder what's happened to the much heralded & lauded comments that certain Lab supporters spouted when the ex DPP became Lab leader? 

 

Remember that he was going to destroy Johnson at the Dispatch Box during PMQ's by using his laser focused, analytical lawyer mind & experience?   Well that appears not to have worked well, has it? 

 

Also like you Hauxwell, I've been trying, (many, many, many), times to find out what Starmer ACTUALLY stands for on here but nobody has the faintest idea what Starmer does stand for or what he means to the average Lab supporter, yet they're prepared to chuck their precious votes at him. 

 

Like the blind leading the blind. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Baron99

[Anna B 1,414]

3 hours ago, West 77 said:

Starmer did work with Corbyn when he was Labour Party leader. Why on earth should he work  now with the ex Labour Party leader who led them to two General Election defeats?   The  big mistake some Labour MPs made was nominating  him for the first Labour leadership election just to get him on the ballot paper. 

 

Just for completeness by saying I thought Corbyn was better at PMQ's than Starmer is not the same as saying he was a better person to lead the Labour Party than Starmer.   In fact I can't think of any Labour MPs who would have been worse leaders than Corbyn with the possible exception of Dianne Abbot .

Starmer was always a stalking horse even when he appeared to be working 'with' Corbyn.

Maybe Corbyn made a mistake in offering to work with the Centrists in the party when all they did was stab him in the back, but that was the kind of man he was.

The reason Starmer should have worked with Corbyn is it would have united the party in the eyes of the electorate, and to some extent satisfied both right and left of the party. And I have no doubt Corbyn would have made sure it work as he was as straight as a die and a true believer in democracy. 

Actually going to the extent of expelling Corbyn from the party on the trumped up grounds of anti-semitism of all things was a major mistake by Starmer.

 

Starmer should have taken the hint when he was thrown out of the pub in Hartlepool. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Anna B

[tinfoilhat 11]

On 14/05/2021 at 07:41, hauxwell said:

Being excellent at the despatch box didn’t help Starmer win the  Hartlepool by-election. As you said in the, Israel-Palestinian Conflict topic, he’ll sort things out with his fancy foot work, personally I think the mans flat footed, so convince me otherwise.

 

I’m not faithful to any political party, so you tell me what his policies are for the future of this country then I will decide if he is worth supporting.

I'm not faithful to any political party.

 

Anybody who is faithful to ANY political is an idiot.

[Anna B 1,414]

4 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I'm not faithful to any political party.

 

Anybody who is faithful to ANY political is an idiot.

When they all lie through their teeth, never follow through on their manifesto's, keep secrets and dubious company and feather their own nests, why would anybody vote at all? 

[El Cid 220]

17 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I'm not faithful to any political party.

Anybody who is faithful to ANY political is an idiot.

Faithful is the wrong word. I have moved from the Liberal Democrats to Labour because I believe our voting system means that the Liberal Democrats are irrelevant in my area and nationally too.

I pay my subs and promote the Labour because I believe in supporting the only party that can make a difference. Having said that, if an election arises where a vote to another person or party will change things, I will gladly vote for them.

[apelike 10]

28 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I'm not faithful to any political party.

 

Anybody who is faithful to ANY political is an idiot.

Nor I, and I couldn't agree more with the last sentence. Belonging and being a member just ties you into an inflexible stance as you then have to believe in what you are told by the party and as we see with many local councillors, toe the party line regardless.

Edited May 15, 2021 by apelike

[andyofborg 11]

7 minutes ago, apelike said:

Nor I, and I couldn't agree more with the last sentence. Belonging and being a member just ties you into an inflexible stance as you then have to believe in what you are told by the party and as we see with many local councillors, toe the party line regardless.

According to many on here the labour party line is unclear, so if that's the case how do we know what line they are toeing? 

 

Party councillors have received a great deal of support and funding from the party. It's quite right that they should do their best to implement and support party policy in return. The fact they get elected suggests a majority of voters broadly agree with the policy platform. 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

I didn't vote Labour in the local elections because I believe they take the Sheffield electorate for granted, have become complacent and unaccountable, and haven't done a very good job in Sheffield, though in general I would probably consider myself (but not exclusively) a Labour supporter. To use the results of the local elections to inform the progress of the parties in a general elections seems a bit of a stretch to me.

 

The Brexit vote didn't strike me as being party political either as both main parties contained both strong leavers and strong remainers. To then use it as a base for winning / losing elections has completely muddied the waters and confused things. Same with party affilliations and demographics. Can Labour still be called the party of the working class - and what is the working class these days? Are Conservatives all about the rich or the aspirational? And so on. 

Politics around the world seems equally confused as the election/non election of Trump and other unlikely candidates have proved.

Until these issues are investigated and made clear or better still the whole voting system changes to a better system we are going to continue to get bizarre anomalies.

 

I've said it before, a tick in a box once every 5 years for pre-decided candidates, to then be ignored, is not really effective democracy in my book. People are getting angrier at their lack of a voice as none of the above are representing their views.  

 

They can see things going wrong with the world we live in but feel at a loss to do anything about it.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Anna B

[apelike 10]

1 hour ago, andyofborg said:

According to many on here the labour party line is unclear, so if that's the case how do we know what line they are toeing? 

I agree that is the case now as they basically have no policies or party line but in the past it was different.

 

1 hour ago, andyofborg said:

Party councillors have received a great deal of support and funding from the party. It's quite right that they should do their best to implement and support party policy in return. The fact they get elected suggests a majority of voters broadly agree with the policy platform. 

So basically by being funded by a political party they are almost being bribed into supporting the party line. What should be questioned is why that is happening. As far as what or who people vote for... that is what is good about democracy until the outcome is not what the voter actually wanted.

[apelike 10]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

I didn't vote Labour in the local elections because I believe they take the Sheffield electorate for granted, have become complacent and unaccountable, and haven't done a very good job in Sheffield, though in general I would probably consider myself (but not exclusively) a Labour supporter. To use the results of the local elections to inform the progress of the parties in a general elections seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Not really as its been like that for decades. Local elections can be an indicator of what the voters feel about central government. 

 

Quote

The Brexit vote didn't strike me as being party political either as both main parties contained both strong leavers and strong remainers. To then use it as a base for winning / losing elections has completely muddied the waters and confused things. Same with party affilliations and demographics. Can Labour still be called the party of the working class - and what is the working class these days? Are Conservatives all about the rich or the aspirational? And so on. 

Were you not defending and talking about ordinary people and the working class not so long ago and yet now you are questioning what working class means...

 

Quote

Politics around the world seems equally confused as the election/non election of Trump and other unlikely candidates have proved.

Until these issues are investigated and made clear or better still the whole voting system changes to a better system we are going to continue to get bizarre anomalies.

Blame that mainly on Labour as they included a pledge to hold a referendum on electoral reform in their 1997 manifesto but never carried it out. They preferred and wanted a system of PR and yet when in power never implemented it for obvious reasons.

 

Quote

I've said it before, a tick in a box once every 5 years for pre-decided candidates, to then be ignored, is not really effective democracy in my book. People are getting angrier at their lack of a voice as none of the above are representing their views. 

One thing I do notice is that is usually the losers that don't like the outcome of democracy when it does not go their way that are the ones that are normally complaining. Complacency yes, anger no.

 

Quote

They can see things going wrong with the world we live in but feel at a loss to do anything about it.

But who are "they" as it seems to be just a minority of those who are complaining and unhappy about it.

Edited May 15, 2021 by apelike

[El Cid 220]

News from Lancaster City Council that the Tories and Greens have joined forces to end the Progressive Alliance. The Green Party have walked away from the formalised Progressive Alliance of Labour, Green and Liberal Democrats to jump into bed with the Tories.

Is this strange?

The Conservatives are obviously more right wing than Labour, should like minded party co-operate with each other? Maybe its down to the personallities involved.