The Labour Party - Part 2

[Longcol 592]

6 hours ago, Anna B said:

No, sorry, you can't pin this on Labour. They are not responsible for this mess. It was Conservative Cameron who called the referendum, and the subsequent vote was not a split on party lines at all, although there was a definite mood of general satisfaction and a desire to give politicians a kick up the backside. It was Conservative Boris who urged people to vote out, again suggesting it was cross party. The vote was almost 50/50.  It was Conservative May who introduced the idea that a deal was an essential part of the process, but the public had no say in this, nor was Labour invited to join in negotiations.

During all this time, Corbyn was being maligned and all but destroyed by the Conservatives and the Conservative run media and Establishment. Virtually every word he spoke was either ignored or disparaged, including his solutions to the impasse. In spite of this he continued to press on, largely having to put his ideas and manifesto on social media where he continues to have a loyal following.

To now try and blame Labour beggars belief.

Negotiating a new deal with the EU was actually a main plank of the Vote Leave (figurehead Johnson B) manifesto.

[Mister M 1,596]

10 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

A loser will always find someone else to blame. 

Interesting then that the Conservative Party, the party which likes to pride itself on being the "party of personal responsibility" has sought to blame everyone else for its current woes, rather than look to itself and the ministers who spearhead it.

[Anna B 1,401]

21 hours ago, L00b said:

I certainly can: to do nothing is always a decision, an act in itself. It's a decision to procrastinate, even when it taken by omission. And Labour has done nothing since the 2016 referendum, beside voting massively for triggering Article 50 (History with a big H will eventually tell you, how pivotal to Brexit this vote was, in years and decades to come: Labour enabled the Tory <removed> of the last 3+ years).

 

Since 2016, under Corbyn, an averred Leaver, Labour has-

 

(i) been too ideologically split over Brexit itself, to adopt a coherent policy of opposition about it (never mind against it) ; and

(ii) continued to be too ideologically split, over where its political centre of gravity should lie on the centrist-Marxist axis of policies ;

 

which both go a very long way to explain its eventual trouncing at the ballot boxes in December 2019, far more than any amount of personal character assassination directed at Corbyn ever could.

 

Starmer started taking Labour back toward the centre as soon as he got the reins, with consistently-clear positions in its messaging , besides the obligatory purge of Labour Brexit ultras diluting the message.

 

Labour has now overtaken the Tories in opinion polls, within a matter of a months, after years of trailing  (inexcusably so, when you cast your mind over the last 4 years of 'Tory' (UKIP, really) governance).

 

QED.

Corbyn did and said plenty. the fact that it wasn't reported supports the point that he was ignored by mainstream media, a point I made frequently)at the time. The media  would wheel out just about anybody to comment on affairs; Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendell, Margaret Hodge, even TonyBlair for heaven's sake; anybody except Corbyn, as long as they were Blairites.

 

Again this was commented upon at the time, including in the LSE's analytical study of media bias.

 

The media were far more concerned with trying to disrupt the Labour party with misdirection such as claims of anti-semitism etc to concern themselves with what Corbyn actually thought or said of important matters such as Brexit. (However if people bothered to watch Prime Ministers Questions itve every week as I did you would have heard clearly what he had to say on this and other matters. His comments however would not make it onto News at 10.) Compare this to Starmer, the new 'acceptable' poster boy of Labour, who has been treated very differently (ie with respect) and is featured frequently.  No doubt as he is a closet Tory and unlikely to make waves he will be allowed to win the next election 

 

We the electorate are manipulated and brainwashed by the media. It is sometimes subtle but always insidious and we all need to be aware of it, but unfortunately, unless your attention has been drawn to it, it will pass you by. Attitudes are formed by the media. It has been called the most powerful entity on earth. They in effect decide who the heroes and villains are, who are the winners and losers.

That is why the internet as an alternative resource of information has to remain free, and why there are constant moves by the establishment to control and censor it.

 

As Martin Luther King said  "...The media have the power to make the innocent guilty and the guilty innocent, and that's power, because they control the minds of the masses. "

  

 

    

Edited October 1, 2020 by nikki-red

[Tony 10]

10 hours ago, Mister M said:

Interesting then that the Conservative Party, the party which likes to pride itself on being the "party of personal responsibility" has sought to blame everyone else for its current woes, rather than look to itself and the ministers who spearhead it.

Point of order, right now the Conservatives Party is holding the Government to account by influencing legislation in a way that the Labour Party isn't. 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-restrictions-tory-backbench-anger-b514858.html 

Whereas Labour and the "Rule of Six".

 

 

For what it's worth I think that JC was quite right to go ahead and enjoy dinner with seven other people from different households. Good on him for showing what normal life should be like right now.

[L00b 441]

11 hours ago, Anna B said:

Corbyn did and said plenty. the fact that it wasn't reported supports the point that he was ignored by mainstream media, a point I made frequently)at the time. The media  would wheel out just about anybody to comment on affairs; Yvette Cooper, Liz Kendell, Margaret Hodge, even TonyBlair for heaven's sake; anybody except Corbyn, as long as they were Blairites.

 

Again this was commented upon at the time, including in the LSE's analytical study of media bias.

 

The media were far more concerned with trying to disrupt the Labour party with misdirection such as claims of anti-semitism etc to concern themselves with what Corbyn actually thought or said of important matters such as Brexit. (However if people bothered to watch Prime Ministers Questions itve every week as I did you would have heard clearly what he had to say on this and other matters. His comments however would not make it onto News at 10.) Compare this to Starmer, the new 'acceptable' poster boy of Labour, who has been treated very differently (ie with respect) and is featured frequently.  No doubt as he is a closet Tory and unlikely to make waves he will be allowed to win the next election 

 

We the electorate are manipulated and brainwashed by the media. It is sometimes subtle but always insidious and we all need to be aware of it, but unfortunately, unless your attention has been drawn to it, it will pass you by. Attitudes are formed by the media. It has been called the most powerful entity on earth. They in effect decide who the heroes and villains are, who are the winners and losers.

That is why the internet as an alternative resource of information has to remain free, and why there are constant moves by the establishment to control and censor it.

 

As Martin Luther King said  "...The media have the power to make the innocent guilty and the guilty innocent, and that's power, because they control the minds of the masses. "

  

 

 

I got your "Saint Corbyn" outlook loud and clear already, you didn't have to lob a "Tory-lite Judas Starmer" cherry on top: that is a given for Corbynistas.

 

I wonder who you'll be voting for at the next GE now. Probably full-fat Tory, like much of the red wall last December. Labour under Starmer won't be extreme enough (either way) for you.

Edited October 1, 2020 by L00b

[alchresearch 210]

Anna just won't get that Labour has changed, the only way they can be electable is to be "Blairite" and more moderate.

 

Like the "blue rinse brigade" who held the Tories back for years, the old Labour lot will do the same and stick the knife into the current management wherever they can.

 

Yet when the "Blairites" did this to poor old Jeremy, they were evil and should have been sacked and banished from the party, according to her.

[L00b 441]

6 hours ago, Tony said:

Point of order, right now the Conservatives Party is holding the Government to account by influencing legislation in a way that the Labour Party isn't.

Something starting with B and rhyming with locks 

 

But yes, trust Magic Grandpa to step on his appendage yet again with that dinner-for-8, and give Johnson free ammunition to deflect this week's efforts from the opposition. Well-meaning as he may be, the man has all the political acumen of a labradoodle.

Edited October 1, 2020 by L00b

[Anna B 1,401]

34 minutes ago, alchresearch said:

Anna just won't get that Labour has changed, the only way they can be electable is to be "Blairite" and more moderate.

 

Like the "blue rinse brigade" who held the Tories back for years, the old Labour lot will do the same and stick the knife into the current management wherever they can.

 

Yet when the "Blairites" did this to poor old Jeremy, they were evil and should have been sacked and banished from the party, according to her.

Paragraph 1. Because the media says so. They have (and will) mercilessly attacked any 'left wing' leader; James Callaghan, Neil Kinnock, Michael Foot, Ed Milliband, Jeremy Corbyn. Only one to escape this treatment was Tony Blair whose multi-millionaire credentials have neoliberal written all over them.

 

Paragraph 2. I think you'll find the Blue rinse brigade is still very much alive and well in the Tory party though not necessarily in the limelight,

and certainly still make up a large proportion of Tory voters who would never contemplate voting Labour. Even I once voted for Thatcher once upon a time, but no blue hair and no internet so I could investigate the media claims myself.)

It's interesting that the core of Corbyn's supporters are young people who are very media savvy.

 

Paragraph 3. I never said the Blairites should have been sacked, a difference of opinion should not be a sackable offence, but neither should it dominate the media to the exclusion of all else. (JC also held out an olive branch and asked them to work with him.) And out and out lies and public betrayal and lies have to be dealt with.

 

Loob: I don't know who I will be voting for at the next election. I will weigh up the pros and cons as I always do. I have voted for all 3 parties in my time, and also spoiled my paper in disgust. Believe it or not I am a natural liberal. I think honesty and fairness is an essential part of politics which is why I am trying to raise awareness into the role of the media. I do not want Rupert Murdoch and co deciding which patsy is to 'run' the country. 

I have heard a rumour that Starmer is in favour of Proportional Representation and is going to push for it. Let's see if that plays out, and if he is clever enough not to fall into a similar trap to the Liberals who were stiffed by Cameron.  Also, can he be trusted? See, honesty is important.  

 

[Anna B 1,401]

29 minutes ago, L00b said:

Something starting with B and rhyming with locks 

 

But yes, trust Magic Grandpa to step on his appendage yet again with that dinner-for-8, and give Johnson free ammunition to deflect this week's efforts from the opposition. Well-meaning as he may be, the man has all the political acumen of a labradoodle.

So, when was the picture taken? Before lockdown restrictions? Were they family? Do you know? Have you bothered to find out? 

Or maybe it's just a rerun of the Railway seat debacle, which was debunked though you probably wouldn't know it from the media.

Incidently, I also checked Tony's link to  verify the photo, and couldn't find the picture or any reference to it. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Anna B

[L00b 441]

23 minutes ago, Anna B said:

(...)

 

Loob: I don't know who I will be voting for at the next election. I will weigh up the pros and cons as I always do. I have voted for all 3 parties in my time, and also spoiled my paper in disgust. Believe it or not I am a natural liberal. I think honesty and fairness is an essential part of politics which is why I am trying to raise awareness into the role of the media. I do not want Rupert Murdoch and co deciding which patsy is to 'run' the country. 

I have heard a rumour that Starmer is in favour of Proportional Representation and is going to push for it. Let's see if that plays out, and if he is clever enough not to fall into a similar trap to the Liberals who were stiffed by Cameron.  Also, can he be trusted? See, honesty is important.  

 

It's a wee bit late for that one. The Conservatives did not turn into the BNP'fied version of UKIP that they currently are, by accident.

 

And if you (still) expect honesty out of any politician -even Saint Jeremy- at your age, I have a bridge to sell you 

 

Look, it's not the first time I have acknowledged how well you mean, and saluted your moral/humanist worldview...but politics-wise, whether in the UK or in the US, the hijacking of bipartisan politics by vested interests to widen ideological and socio-economic divides has killed off democratic legitimacy, leaving your "lefty liberal" type (it's meant as a shortcut, not an insult) as disenfranchised as "righty liberal" types (what I would call traditional conservatives, not taken in by false sovereignty and immigration debates).

 

The political centre first needs to be recaptured and decoupled from these dividing-and-conquering vested interests, so much GAFAs as Russian oligarchs and all the others, before you and I (e.g.) can have the luxury of debating whether tax money should be spent on more public services or more infrastructure: currently, it looks like it's all going to kleptocrats and you are getting neither more public services nor more infrastructure.

 

Edit: I read that Corbyn had apologised over this Rule of 6 breach, before posting about it. You make a fair point about the photo, but unless you can show me that both the dinner photo and Corbyn's own apology were media fabrications...

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by L00b

[Tony 10]

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

So, when was the picture taken? Before lockdown restrictions? Were they family? Do you know? Have you bothered to find out? 

Or maybe it's just a rerun of the Railway seat debacle, which was debunked though you probably wouldn't know it from the media.

Incidently, I also checked Tony's link to  verify the photo, and couldn't find the picture or any reference to it. 

Happy to help: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/12813325/corbyn-breaks-rule-of-six-at-dinner-party/

 

 

 

Quote

 

NO SOCIALIST DISTANCING 

Jeremy Corbyn issues grovelling apology after breaking coronavirus ‘rule of 6’ at dinner party for nine

 

EX-Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn tonight apologised for breaching the “rule of six”.

The former Labour leader, 71, was photographed looking grumpy at the posh nine-strong bash.

 

Corbyn, his wife Laura Alvarez, 51, and fellow guests at the do in London last Saturday now face fines totalling up to £1,800.

The socialist, whose election slogan as Leader of the Opposition was “for the many, not the few”, tonight apologised.

He told The Sun: “I recently had dinner at a friend’s house where the number of guests eventually exceeded five.

"I understand that remaining at the dinner was a breach of the rule of six. I apologise for my mistake.”

 

Corbyn, MP for Islington North, showed that Boris Johnson is not the only politician seemingly confused by the new Covid rules.

The strict “rule of six” measure was brought in on September 14 to curb a deadly second Covid wave.

'HE SHOULD KNOW THE RULES'

It bans gatherings of more than six indoors or outdoors unless they already live together, with potential fines of £200 each for first-time offenders.

The Sun understands the rule-breaching party was held at a home belonging to one of Corbyn’s long-term pals.

Guests included left-wing activists, filmmakers and artists - many in thrall to Corbyn’s political philosophy.

 

During the evening, one left the table and took a photograph of the remaining eight.

It prompted a grumpy reaction from checked-shirt wearing Corbyn, who was sitting two seats away from his wife.

A source said: “It’s clear that Jeremy realised immediately the danger the photo had put him in.

“His face says it all. He knew he shouldn’t have been present and he, of all people, should know the rules.

"But it seems that when it comes to social distancing, some are more equal than others.”

The dinner party was held on the same day his older brother Piers, 73, led an anti-mask and social distancing rally in Trafalgar Square.

It seems that when it comes to social distancing, some are more equal than others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by nikki-red

[Anna B 1,401]

2 hours ago, L00b said:

It's a wee bit late for that one. The Conservatives did not turn into the BNP'fied version of UKIP that they currently are, by accident.

 

And if you (still) expect honesty out of any politician -even Saint Jeremy- at your age, I have a bridge to sell you 

 

Look, it's not the first time I have acknowledged how well you mean, and saluted your moral/humanist worldview...but politics-wise, whether in the UK or in the US, the hijacking of bipartisan politics by vested interests to widen ideological and socio-economic divides has killed off democratic legitimacy, leaving your "lefty liberal" type (it's meant as a shortcut, not an insult) as disenfranchised as "righty liberal" types (what I would call traditional conservatives, not taken in by false sovereignty and immigration debates).

 

The political centre first needs to be recaptured and decoupled from these dividing-and-conquering vested interests, so much GAFAs as Russian oligarchs and all the others, before you and I (e.g.) can have the luxury of debating whether tax money should be spent on more public services or more infrastructure: currently, it looks like it's all going to kleptocrats and you are getting neither more public services nor more infrastructure.

 

Edit: I read that Corbyn had apologised over this Rule of 6 breach, before posting about it. You make a fair point about the photo, but unless you can show me that both the dinner photo and Corbyn's own apology were media fabrications...

 

What an interesting and well written response.

Thankyou. It deserves some serious thought.

Do you think PR will help recapture a more democratic centre ground?

 

Tony: Fair cop. At least he had the good grace to apologise and pay the fine.

Were the attention grabbing large letters your addition, (if so why?) Or was it part of the original text?

Edited October 1, 2020 by Anna B