The Labour Party - Part 2

[Baron99 779]

3 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

Not so.

The result of the vote is put into place immediately and then lasts for 5 years and there is no opportunity to change your mind until the next General Election.

The politicians blocked the result of the referendum and it still hasn't been put into place yet.

Ask yourself when that referendum took place.

Maybe you missed this quote from Starmer a while back on Sky? 

 

"We have left the EU, and therefore the arguments about Leave and Remain that tore us apart for years are over," he told Sky News.

"I'm very clear therefore what's now in the national interest is getting a deal. We need to get a deal and we need to move on."

 

I often wonder why a small minority of people still believe & waste their lives believing that there's a fight to be fought for a second EU referendum when the majority, those who paid attention, all know that we've already left & there's less than 100 days left of the final transition period? 

 

Even the bloke with the megaphone, who spent years of his life shouting on Westminster Green gave up & went home months ago.  He got the message. 

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-sir-keir-starmer-tries-recasting-himself-as-the-competent-leaver-as-the-government-faces-turmoil-12066961

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Baron99

[Organgrinder 1,946]

7 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Maybe you missed this quote from Starmer a while back on Sky? 

 

"We have left the EU, and therefore the arguments about Leave and Remain that tore us apart for years are over," he told Sky News.

"I'm very clear therefore what's now in the national interest is getting a deal. We need to get a deal and we need to move on."

 

I often wonder why a small minority of people still believe & waste their lives believing that there's a fight to be fought for a second EU referendum when the majority, those who paid attention, all know that we've already left & there's less than 100 days left of the final transition period? 

 

Even the bloke with the megaphone, who spent years of his life shouting on Westminster Green gave up & went home months ago.  He got the message. 

I didn't miss it at all and it was on the Andrew Marr Show. I saw the interview and Starmer was asked whether Labour now ruled out re-joining the EU and he refused to answer.

Further to that, Starmer says "We need to get a deal" and we know full well that he wants to re-join the Customs Union to get that deal.

He also doesn't  rule out The European Court taking priority over our courts so that Europe is still legally in charge of us.

I am also, still waiting to hear whether he plans to give way on fishing in order to get that deal.

You also seem to mistakenly believe that I want another referendum when I don't . We had a Referendum, I liked the result and now,  I just want to be OUT

I don't care how few days there are to go, I still don't trust Labour  and many Tory politicians so you and the majority who paid attention can believe what you like but I will believe we are properly out on the day it happens.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

2 hours ago, nightrider said:

what are you talking about? We leave on 31 December. Thats it, we are out. Done.  Once out we can have a referendum on rejoining if people support it (which I think they will once they see what  disaster we are in).

I can read a calender and  it is not yet 31 December so we are not yet out and it is not yet done.

When we are,  I will be satisfied although, having been around long enough to recognise con-men politicians,  I will still never trust Starmer.

[Baron99 779]

11 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

I didn't miss it at all and it was on the Andrew Marr Show. I saw the interview and Starmer was asked whether Labour now ruled out re-joining the EU and he refused to answer.

Further to that, Starmer says "We need to get a deal" and we know full well that he wants to re-join the Customs Union to get that deal.

He also doesn't  rule out The European Court taking priority over our courts so that Europe is still legally in charge of us.

I am also, still waiting to hear whether he plans to give way on fishing in order to get that deal.

You also seem to mistakenly believe that I want another referendum when I don't . We had a Referendum, I liked the result and now,  I just want to be OUT

I don't care how few days there are to go, I still don't trust Labour  and many Tory politicians so you and the majority who paid attention can believe what you like but I will believe we are properly out on the day it happens.

Well that'll be somewhere between the last bong & the first banger going off at the end / start of the year. 

[Organgrinder 1,946]

2 hours ago, altus said:

Corbyn's position on how he wanted Brexit to turn out, renegotiate the Tory deal to be closer to the EU, was consistent with the referendum result. Don't forget, the referendum did not define what Brexit would look like and the Leave campaigns were assiduous about not defining it so people would project what they wanted onto it and be more likely to vote for it. A Norway style deal would have honoured the result of the referendum. There never was one true Brexit that everyone who voted leave supported, only that we no longer be members of the EU. Ultimately it was blocked by people wanting a different sort of Brexit from that negotiated - i.e. the ERG blocking May's deal.

Remember you are talking to a leaver so why should we want a deal to be closer to the EU?  We wanted to be as far away as possible.

How could anyone believe that staying in the Customs union with the European court telling us what is or isn't allowed and whether we could control our own borders, is leaving the EU?

We want full control of our own affairs as a Soverign state,  which means leaving completely , with or without a deal.

Corbyn and the Labour Party wouldn't agree to this.

You may be happy with a Norway style deal or with whatever  Labour offered but I and many more like me just want a totally clean break.

I accept your right to your view but it isn't for me. Each to their own

11 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Well that'll be somewhere between the last bong & the first banger going off at the end / start of the year. 

Hopefully.

Can't come soon enough.

[Anna B 1,401]

The deal is the sticking point and always has been. The original question was simply 'in or out?' No mention of a deal.

The goalposts have moved somewhat. The question now seems to be 'do we want out with a deal, or no deal?' Which is as contentious as ever.

The politicians and the public are still divided, only now the public have no real say in the matter.

We should have gone with Corbyn's idea and had a vote on whether the deal was acceptable.

 

Personally, l would have been guided by Corbyn as he is a man you can trust and genuinely has the interests of the electorate at heart.

[Baron99 779]

47 minutes ago, Anna B said:

The deal is the sticking point and always has been. The original question was simply 'in or out?' No mention of a deal.

The goalposts have moved somewhat. The question now seems to be 'do we want out with a deal, or no deal?' Which is as contentious as ever.

The politicians and the public are still divided, only now the public have no real say in the matter.

We should have gone with Corbyn's idea and had a vote on whether the deal was acceptable.

 

Personally, l would have been guided by Corbyn as he is a man you can trust and genuinely has the interests of the electorate at heart.

My bold. 

 

Ok, I'll ask? 

 

If the electorate had gone with Corbyn's idea, (presumably you're discussing from the point of view of Labour winning the last election because the numbers wouldn't have stacked up otherwise? ) & had a vote on whether the deal was acceptable & Corbyn would have won, where would we be at this moment in time?  

[L00b 441]

Where Brexit is concerned, Labour under Starmer now, is no different to Labour under Corbyn then. Whatsoever.

 

The strategy is still exactly the same: keep well back and let the Tories wear everything about Brexit and own all the consequences of their infighting.

 

Starmer acknowledging that the UK has already left (technically, it did, at end January 2020) is just stating the obvious and stripping the notion of a (now redundant) vote about the deal from the last Labour manifesto/message. It doesn't change anything in practice. And continues to abnegate Labour's role as a political opposition, as completely now as over the last 4 years.

 

Whatever happens and befalls the UK in the months to come, will be nearly as much on Labour, as on the Conservatives. Nearly, because they weren't in charge. But still a good bit -at least- , because it was their job to hold May and now Johnson to account...and we're all seeing how that went and how it's going.

[whiteowl 54]

*wrong thread I think - moved to brexit*

Edited September 29, 2020 by whiteowl

[Anna B 1,401]

On 29/09/2020 at 21:26, L00b said:

Where Brexit is concerned, Labour under Starmer now, is no different to Labour under Corbyn then. Whatsoever.

 

The strategy is still exactly the same: keep well back and let the Tories wear everything about Brexit and own all the consequences of their infighting.

 

Starmer acknowledging that the UK has already left (technically, it did, at end January 2020) is just stating the obvious and stripping the notion of a (now redundant) vote about the deal from the last Labour manifesto/message. It doesn't change anything in practice. And continues to abnegate Labour's role as a political opposition, as completely now as over the last 4 years.

 

Whatever happens and befalls the UK in the months to come, will be nearly as much on Labour, as on the Conservatives. Nearly, because they weren't in charge. But still a good bit -at least- , because it was their job to hold May and now Johnson to account...and we're all seeing how that went and how it's going.

No, sorry, you can't pin this on Labour. They are not responsible for this mess. It was Conservative Cameron who called the referendum, and the subsequent vote was not a split on party lines at all, although there was a definite mood of general dissatisfaction and a desire to give politicians a kick up the backside. It was Conservative Boris who urged people to vote out, again suggesting it was cross party. The vote was almost 50/50.  It was Conservative May who introduced the idea that a deal was an essential part of the process, but the public had no say in this, nor was Labour invited to join in negotiations.

During all this time, Corbyn was being maligned and all but destroyed by the Conservatives and the Conservative run media and Establishment. Virtually every word he spoke was either ignored or disparaged, including his solutions to the impasse. In spite of this he continued to press on, largely having to put his ideas and manifesto on social media where he continues to have a loyal following.

To now try and blame Labour beggars belief.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Anna B

[L00b 441]

On 30/09/2020 at 15:22, Anna B said:

No, sorry, you can't pin this on Labour. They are not responsible for this mess. It was Conservative Cameron who called the referendum, and the subsequent vote was not a split on party lines at all, although there was a definite mood of general satisfaction and a desire to give politicians a kick up the backside. It was Conservative Boris who urged people to vote out, again suggesting it was cross party. The vote was almost 50/50.  It was Conservative May who introduced the idea that a deal was an essential part of the process, but the public had no say in this, nor was Labour invited to join in negotiations.

During all this time, Corbyn was being maligned and all but destroyed by the Conservatives and the Conservative run media and Establishment. Virtually every word he spoke was either ignored or disparaged, including his solutions to the impasse. In spite of this he continued to press on, largely having to put his ideas and manifesto on social media where he continues to have a loyal following.

To now try and blame Labour beggars belief.

I certainly can: to do nothing is always a decision, an act in itself. It's a decision to procrastinate, even when it taken by omission. And Labour has done nothing since the 2016 referendum, beside voting massively for triggering Article 50 (History with a big H will eventually tell you, how pivotal to Brexit this vote was, in years and decades to come: Labour enabled the Tory <removed> of the last 3+ years).

 

Since 2016, under Corbyn, an averred Leaver, Labour has-

 

(i) been too ideologically split over Brexit itself, to adopt a coherent policy of opposition about it (never mind against it) ; and

(ii) continued to be too ideologically split, over where its political centre of gravity should lie on the centrist-Marxist axis of policies ;

 

which both go a very long way to explain its eventual trouncing at the ballot boxes in December 2019, far more than any amount of personal character assassination directed at Corbyn ever could.

 

Starmer started taking Labour back toward the centre as soon as he got the reins, with consistently-clear positions in its messaging , besides the obligatory purge of Labour Brexit ultras diluting the message.

 

Labour has now overtaken the Tories in opinion polls, within a matter of a months, after years of trailing  (inexcusably so, when you cast your mind over the last 4 years of 'Tory' (UKIP, really) governance).

 

QED.

Edited October 1, 2020 by nikki-red

[Baron99 779]

6 hours ago, Anna B said:

No, sorry, you can't pin this on Labour. They are not responsible for this mess. It was Conservative Cameron who called the referendum, and the subsequent vote was not a split on party lines at all, although there was a definite mood of general satisfaction and a desire to give politicians a kick up the backside. It was Conservative Boris who urged people to vote out, again suggesting it was cross party. The vote was almost 50/50.  It was Conservative May who introduced the idea that a deal was an essential part of the process, but the public had no say in this, nor was Labour invited to join in negotiations.

During all this time, Corbyn was being maligned and all but destroyed by the Conservatives and the Conservative run media and Establishment. Virtually every word he spoke was either ignored or disparaged, including his solutions to the impasse. In spite of this he continued to press on, largely having to put his ideas and manifesto on social media where he continues to have a loyal following.

To now try and blame Labour beggars belief.

A loser will always find someone else to blame.