The Labour Party - Part 2

[Ridgewalk 99]

5 hours ago, sheffbag said:

When are people going to give up on the failed experiment about Corbyn. What a load of cobblers that a Corbyn party would have bigger membership than the Labour Party. The only way that would happen would be if the unions decided to throw their toys out of the cot and go control a different party.

 

Even then membership means absolutely nothing. Anna loved to bleat on about how Labour "had the biggest membership in Europe of any party because of Saint Jeremy". It made ZERO difference  in the polls didnt it? a Corbyn led party managed to lose to Teresa May and Boris Johnson, two of potentially the worst PM'sin living history and Corbyn manged to pull a Footesque humiliation yet "the comrades" still believe he is popular.

 

Comments like calling Corbyn fans the "unbrainwashed" (Annas comment above) indicating that anyone who doesnt support Corbyn has been brain washed and unable to think for themselves is part of the reason why Corbyn lost the election.

 

Give it up and try concentrating on getting back into power for the first time in 50 years why not (considering that most Corbyn fans dont accept 10 years of Labour power under a successful PM as a Labour government)

Oh I can assure you if Corbyn decided to setup a new party it’s membership would  dwarf Labour. Why do you think that’s “ cobblers” ? Out of interest are you a party member ? 
 

Well membership clearly isn’t everything, although it’s an indicator of engagement, just like a football club having more supporters doesn’t mean it’s going to be more successful than a club with less, there are other powerful forces influencing the climate of opinion, and how people cast their vote, eg Brexit. Although Labour  gained  fewer seats in the general election 2017 than the Tories, Theresay May 

lost her majority and had to bribe the DUP with 8 billion pounds ( not sure), to back her and give her a majority in Westminster 

 

What do you mean “ power for the first time in 50 years”

 

Well if you were “ brainwashed”, you wouldn’t know it. 
 

It’s the social existence of people that shapes consciousness, not the other way round.

 

Rule Britannia

Edited March 22, 2022 by Ridgewalk
…

[Ridgewalk 99]

1 hour ago, hackey lad said:

At one time he was known as the housewives favourite 

By who and when ? Evidence ?

[Anna B 1,414]

3 hours ago, alchresearch said:

But the red wall vote which won it for them was a borrowed vote

 

I can't see him getting it again.

Boris / Conservatives may not get in again next time, but do you really think anything will change with Starmer?

 

It's taken 40 years of Conservatism (I include Blair) with their 'free market economics' to get into this mess. It's allowed the rise of the Corporations, who are actually more powerful than governments, to flourish. They call the shots now, and it seems there's nothing the government can (or is willing) do about it. They also control the media, therefore the minds of the people. We are entering a period of profound serfdom.

 

Think a milksop like Starmer or anyone else in the current Labour party would be a match for 'The Iron Lady' and her acolytes?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Anna B

[crookesey 633]

1 minute ago, Anna B said:

Boris / Conservatives may not get in again next time, but do you really think anything will change with Starmer?

 

It's taken 40 years of Conservatism (I include Blair) with their 'free market economics' to get into this mess. It's allowed the rise of the Corporations who are actually more powerful than governments to flourish. They call the shots, and it seems there's nothing the government can (or is willing) do about it. They control the media, therefore the minds of the people. We are entering a period of profound serfdom.

 

Think a milksop like Starmer or anyone else in the current Labour party would be a match for 'The Iron Lady' and her acolytes?

The further left that folk like you go the further right the Tory party will go. Blair was no Tory, he simply realised that the electorate didn’t want communists hiding under the 
Labour banner, he saw how Thatcher won elections and learned from her. You live in hate and blame all ills on the Tory party, you will never see a Labour government in what is left of your life, but don’t blame the Tories, just take a look in the mirror.

[sheffbag 227]

37 minutes ago, Ridgewalk said:

Oh I can assure you if Corbyn decided to setup a new party it’s membership would  dwarf Labour. Why do you think that’s “ cobblers” ? Out of interest are you a party member ? 
 

Well membership clearly isn’t everything, although it’s an indicator of engagement, just like a football club having more supporters doesn’t mean it’s going to be more successful than a club with less. Despite gaining fewer seats in the general election 2017 Theresay May 

lost her majority and had to bribe the DUP with 8 billion pounds ( not sure), to back her and give her a majority.

 

What do you mean “ power for the first time in 50 years”

 

Well if you were “ brainwashed”, you wouldn’t know it. 
 

It’s the social existence of people that shapes consciousness, not the other way round.

 

Rule Britannia

Party membership - Whats your evidence for your claim? Consdering Corbyns beliefs are so socialist based why hasnt he joined the socialist workers party now he is an independent?

 

Did the Labour party more than double its membership under Corbyn? Has its membership halved under Starmer? have all the massess who rushed to join Labour now left since JC has lost the leadership...... No

 in 2015 the unions held 27% of the membership, which is why i said that the only way a Corbyn led party could gain membership would be if the unions came across so they can tell Corbyn what to do.

 

Am i a member? Thats personal but i will say I am somebody who was brought up in a strong Labour supporting household, has voted Labour in the past both at local and general election level and would love a strong opposition to the Conservative party. Corbyn could never give that and never got my vote

 

Membership is everything according to some posters on here, particularly the one i was quoting. And it should give you the largest platform to influence voters. In that case how can you explain why the party with the biggest membership managed to lose with the biggest loss in living memory to Boris Johnsons Conservatives. Seems Corbyn was pretty useless at getting his message across to his supporters. Two and half times the membership in 2019 (480K to 180K), nearly half the seats.

 

Lets not forget as well that Labour under Corbyn had 564K member in 2017 yet 80K (nearly 15%) of those left the party under Corbyn in 2 years. Did that not indicate that Labour voters were not supportive of him

source : https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05125/SN05125.pdf

 

 

Power for the first time in 50 years - Labour (as a socialist party) have not won an election since 1974 and the next election is not due till 2024. most socialist Labour supporters on here refuse to acknowledge the Blair years instead wishing to call him Tory Lite, etc. That means at every opportunity for 50 years (if you wish to be pedantic 45 years since Magaret Thatcher won up to the next opportunity for Labour to lose again) the british public has rejected Labour's socialist based stand point in elections. Labour fans can bleat on about the government as much as it wants but it cant do anything about it or implement any of its policies or views until it wins an election and forms a government. Isnt that the aim of "the biggest party in Europe" and politics in general, be able to create policy and implement it. Do you view the Blair years as a Labour government? Do you think Starmer can win a majority at the next election?

 

The brainwashed comment was a rebuttal to Anna's comment that only the unbrainwashed can see the light and it is that attitude that cost Labour votes. If fans of JC want to describe themselves as the holy messiahs and indicate that anyone who doesnt follow their beliefs are brainwashed sheep by insinuation then they deserve the lack of support he received. Even your comment is laudable and dismissive, which just echoes my comment on Anna B's post.

 

Not sure what the comment after relates to but i do agree with the Rule Britannia one.

Edited March 22, 2022 by sheffbag

[sheffbag 227]

36 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Boris / Conservatives may not get in again next time, but do you really think anything will change with Starmer?

 

It's taken 40 years of Conservatism (I include Blair) with their 'free market economics' to get into this mess. It's allowed the rise of the Corporations, who are actually more powerful than governments, to flourish. They call the shots now, and it seems there's nothing the government can (or is willing) do about it. They also control the media, therefore the minds of the people. We are entering a period of profound serfdom.

 

Think a milksop like Starmer or anyone else in the current Labour party would be a match for 'The Iron Lady' and her acolytes?

well, Callaghan, Foot and Kinnock weren't, so probably not

 

p.s if you include Blair then its currently 43 years and will be 45 by next election.....:)

[Ridgewalk 99]

250,000 if not more joined Labour after Corbyn’s election as leader, thus creating the largest political party in Western Europe. Since Keith has been there 150, 000 have left. I detest Starmer but remained, probably like many others. Some unions have left Labour , Bakers Union and one other  I believe , up to now. I asked you why you thought it was “ cobblers”, but you answered my question with another question. So I’ll try again, why do you think it’s cobblers ? I also asked if you were a member of the Party as it may have a bearing on what you information you have access to to describe my assertion as “ cobblers”. I’ve no idea who you are so why so secretive about the membership question, unless you’re a conspiracy theorist who believes Big  Brother is watching ?

16 minutes ago, sheffbag said:

Party membership - Whats your evidence for your claim? Consdering Corbyns beliefs are so socialist based why hasnt he joined the socialist workers party now he is an independent?

 

Did the Labour party more than double its membership under Corbyn? Has its membership halved under Starmer? in 2015 the unions held 27% of the membership, which is why i said that the only way a Corbyn led party could gain membership would be if the unions came across so they can tell Corbyn what to do.

 

Am i a member? Thats personal but i will say I am somebody who was brought up in a strong Labour supporting household, has voted Labour in the past both at local and general election level and would love a strong opposition to the Conservative party. Corbyn could never give that and never got my vote

 

Membership is everything according to some posters on here, particularly the one i was quoting. In that case how can you explain why the party with the biggest membership managed to lose with the biggest loss in living memory to Boris Johnsons Conservatives. Seems Corbyn was pretty useless at getting his message across to his supporters. Twice the membership, nearly half the seats.

 

Power for the first time in 50 years - Labour (as a socialist party) have not won an election since 1974. most socialist Labour supporters on here refuse to acknowledge the Blair years instead wishing to call him Tory Lite, etc. That means at every opportunity for 50 years the british public has rejected Labour's socialist based stand point in elections. Labour fans can bleat on about the government as much as it wants but it cant do anything about it or implement any of its policies or views until it wins an election and forms a government. Isnt that the aim of "the biggest party in Europe" and politics in general, be able to create policy and implement it. Do you view the Blair years as a Labour government? Do you think Starmer can win a majority at the next election?

 

The brainwashed comment was a rebuttal to Anna's comment that only the unbrainwashed can see the light and it is that attitude that cost Labour votes. If fans of JC want to describe themselves as the holy messiahs and indicate that anyone who doesnt follow their beliefs are brainwashed sheep by insinuation then they deserve the lack of support he received. Even your comment is laudable and dismissive, which just echoes my comment on Anna B's post.

 

Not sure what the comment after relates to but i do agree with the Rule Britannia one.

Sorry mate my last message is addressed to you 

[El Cid 218]

2 hours ago, Ridgewalk said:

250,000 if not more joined Labour after Corbyn’s election as leader, thus creating the largest political party in Western Europe.

That is because the UK is unique among European countries in terms of its electoral system – and not in a good way. It’s the only country with a parliamentary system that uses the outdated, one-person-takes-all First Past the Post system.

[Ridgewalk 99]

9 minutes ago, El Cid said:

That is because the UK is unique among European countries in terms of its electoral system – and not in a good way. It’s the only country with a parliamentary system that uses the outdated, one-person-takes-all First Past the Post system.

Ok. Not au fait with any other countries although I have more than a passing interest in French politics. To say we are neighbours our systems are completely different. I’ve had their system explained to me on several occasions but can’t get my head around it. Their second Chamber is elected by already elected members in the other Chamber as well as Mayors. To be honest I find French politics more interesting. The Labour equivalent, social democratic Socialist Party candidate is on 2% according to Polls. Two extreme right wingers are doing well

[Anna B 1,414]

3 hours ago, sheffbag said:

well, Callaghan, Foot and Kinnock weren't, so probably not

 

p.s if you include Blair then its currently 43 years and will be 45 by next election.....:)

Foot and Kinnock received a similar mauling in the media to Corbyn. This was when the media started to decide our prime ministers for us.

[ECCOnoob 1,040]

3 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Foot and Kinnock received a similar mauling in the media to Corbyn. This was when the media started to decide our prime ministers for us.

Here we go again.... blaming some fantasy media bias for the endless procession of failure incompetent left-wing politicians.

 

If you pulled your head out of the sand for 5 minutes you will see that Thatcher, Major, Cameron, May and Boris have all got just as much savage attacking from the media.   

 

The media cares about selling print.  That's it.  They will support and cheerlead whatever side they choose, when it suits them, and when it fits their narrative. It is well documented when certain alleged biased newspapers suddenly switch allegiance when the sales start dropping.

 

You can't keep churning out this pathetic excuse to justify the Labour Party's continual failure to engage the electorate.  First step to fixing a problem is admitting you have one. 

[Anna B 1,414]

4 hours ago, crookesey said:

The further left that folk like you go the further right the Tory party will go. Blair was no Tory, he simply realised that the electorate didn’t want communists hiding under the 
Labour banner, he saw how Thatcher won elections and learned from her. You live in hate and blame all ills on the Tory party, you will never see a Labour government in what is left of your life, but don’t blame the Tories, just take a look in the mirror.

You don't seem to realise just how far right the Conservative party have gone. Thatcher started the move with FME and they are now far right, but this isn't mentioned at all. We used to have responsible capitalism, but free market economics (every man for himself, and devil take the rest,) put an end to this. Few people investigated beyond Thatcher's rhetoric and brilliant marketing  ploy - lending the public their own money to buy shares in companies they already owned - ('Tell Sid!') to understand what this really meant. 

 

When people like Michael Foot tried to explain no one was listening. and the Newspaper Barrons, who were all for FME of course, as it would make them billions, made sure of it, and have done so ever since.

You need to read up a bit on how much Thatcher (and Regan) spent on media and advertising  to get their new way of doing politics across; the most in history, it was the biggest marketing campaign ever in politics. But of course FME was never mentioned, and the whole picture was missing. Only the 'benefits' portrayed. 

 

"He that controls the media, controls the minds of the masses"

Edited March 22, 2022 by Anna B