The Labour Party - Part 2

[The Joker 10]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

The wider electorate scream that "middle-class" society more now than ever before.. They are aspirational.  They are ambitious. They are educated. They are globalised. They are just as greedy and self-centered as they ever were.

 

Yes they're may be small groups of dreaming, fantasising young left wing student types and the odd pocket of dinosaur ex mining community socialists who still treat trade unions are god, believe in some caring sharing society where all are equal and all should be evenly distributed... but for the majority they grow up, get into the world of work, get on the career ladder and their will changes.  Less caring about their fellow men with so called strong social consciousness and more crawling, backstabbing, selling out, looking after number one and making sure they damn well keep as much as possible of what they earn. 

 

It's Human Nature. How people like to portray themselves when asked in conversation or through some poll or how they like to think they are politically aligned compared to reality are very different things.  Parties and politicians have to adapt and evolve and change with the changing tide.

Your attitude scares me.

 

I'm from a poor background and I've done well for myself through hard work and good fortune, but for you to say that I'm not concerned about my fellow man, and would happily stab them in the back . . . I think that says more about you than it does me.

 

Am I right in thinking you're a lawyer?  Maybe that's your problem.

 

 

[Mister M 1,625]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

No they haven't Anna. When will you people pull your head out the sand and wake up. How many more defeats do you need before the message will sink in.

 

The wider electorate scream that "middle-class" society more now than ever before.. They are aspirational.  They are ambitious. They are educated. They are globalised. They are just as greedy and self-centered as they ever were.

 

Yes they're may be small groups of dreaming, fantasising young left wing student types and the odd pocket of dinosaur ex mining community socialists who still treat trade unions are god, believe in some caring sharing society where all are equal and all should be evenly distributed... but for the majority they grow up, get into the world of work, get on the career ladder and their will changes.  Less caring about their fellow men with so called strong social consciousness and more crawling, backstabbing, selling out, looking after number one and making sure they damn well keep as much as possible of what they earn. 

 

It's Human Nature. How people like to portray themselves when asked in conversation or through some poll or how they like to think they are politically aligned compared to reality are very different things.  Parties and politicians have to adapt and evolve and change with the changing tide.

 

100 years of politics. The results are blindingly obvious. Why are some people so deluded they cannot see it. The people have spoken many times. They don't want it and that is why that faction of the party  continually fails with its failure supporters.

 

Personally, I wish they would do as you suggest. I wish they would go full-on socialist back to their roots alienating the majority of electorate, businesses, corporations and entrepreneurs. At least then they will soon disappear back into the bottom of the pile where they belong.

That's so much of a caricature of Tory Party thinking that even a satirist couldn't better it. 

It seems inspired by Brett Easton Ellis' 'American Psycho'

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Mister M

[Carbuncle 0]

2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

The wider electorate scream that "middle-class" society more now than ever before.. They are aspirational.  They are ambitious. They are educated. They are globalised. They are just as greedy and self-centered as they ever were.

 

Yes they're may be small groups of dreaming, fantasising young left wing student types and the odd pocket of dinosaur ex mining community socialists who still treat trade unions are god, believe in some caring sharing society where all are equal and all should be evenly distributed... but for the majority they grow up, get into the world of work, get on the career ladder and their will changes.  Less caring about their fellow men with so called strong social consciousness and more crawling, backstabbing, selling out, looking after number one and making sure they damn well keep as much as possible of what they earn. 

 

It's Human Nature. How people like to portray themselves when asked in conversation or through some poll or how they like to think they are politically aligned compared to reality are very different things.  Parties and politicians have to adapt and evolve and change with the changing tide.

 

An awful lot (I don't have polling numbers) of academics seem to identify as progressives, read the Guardian and vote Labour. They do not seem to fit your description.

 

In the US, the richer, more outward-looking, better educated states on the 'two coasts' tend to vote Democrat, that is for the more left-wing party. Meanwhile the poorer, less educated states spanning the rest of the US tend to be majority Republican. The Republican states tend to be more isolationist. Again this does not seem to agree with your theorizing.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Carbuncle

[The Joker 10]

7 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

In the US, the richer, more outward-looking, better educated states on the 'two coasts' tend to vote Democrat, that is for the more left-wing party. Meanwhile the poorer, less educated states spanning the rest of the US tend to be majority Republican. The Republican states tend to be more isolationist.

Funny thing is, the wealthier Democratic states pay more taxes, and the poorer Republican states require more government handouts, all the while those same poorer states are demanding a smaller government and lower taxes . . .

 

https://apnews.com/article/north-america-business-local-taxes-ap-top-news-politics-2f83c72de1bd440d92cdbc0d3b6bc08c

 

Of course, we're not that small-minded over here, are we ?

 

[horribleblob 213]

31 minutes ago, The Joker said:

Your attitude scares me.

 

I'm from a poor background and I've done well for myself through hard work and good fortune, but for you to say that I'm not concerned about my fellow man, and would happily stab them in the back . . . I think that says more about you than it does me.

I agree with the above – it more or less mirrors my continuing life experience. (And I'm not a "dreaming, fantasising young left wing student type", or part of an "odd pocket of dinosaur ex mining community socialists who still treat trade unions are (sic) god". )

 

However, I don't necessarily agree with the below as I have a couple of lawyer friends who do honestly care about people, are not out to backstab just to climb up the greasy pole, and they do believe in a "caring sharing society" of the kind that ECCOnoob seems to disparage.

31 minutes ago, The Joker said:

Am I right in thinking you're a lawyer?  Maybe that's your problem.

 

 

 

 

[ECCOnoob 1,040]

1 hour ago, The Joker said:

Your attitude scares me.

 

I'm from a poor background and I've done well for myself through hard work and good fortune, but for you to say that I'm not concerned about my fellow man, and would happily stab them in the back . . . I think that says more about you than it does me.

 

Am I right in thinking you're a lawyer?  Maybe that's your problem.

 

 

Well as you are doing so well for yourself above others give it all the way then. Share your rewards. Let those who cannot or will not work as hard as you did embrace same of the lifestyle and standards that you have.... 

 

That's true equality right?  That's true socialist thinking right?  

 

I bet you won't though. Nor should you.  That is the point I am getting at. An extreme example maybe. A tongue in cheek exaggerated example of course, but the principle still applies. The reality of someone's personal  actions differs wildly from what they declare as a political leaning. It cannot be denied that such discrepancy is clearly present when considering the successful elected politicians against  the ones who have constantly failed.

 

You admit you worked harder than others. You advanced above others less skilled, qualified or educated in order to progress to the position you have. You forged ahead and are reaping the rewards.

 

I'm certainly not criticising that. I too came from a humble background and worked extremely hard to get where I am. Lots of people do. But I certainly not in denial that to get to that position it involved the sort of behaviour I describe earlier. We all do it whether we like to admit it or not. You can't get up the ladder without it.  At some point focus becomes on ourselves . We will fight and battle with others to get ahead. 

 

I am not saying we don't have charitable parts to ourselves. We will give to others in need but there is always an expectation that something is gained in reward either through personal ego, beneficial connections or positive imagery of ourselves to others. We are all inbuilt with some level of sympathy to others and know that there's a minimum level of state provision needed which is paid for by our taxes. However I don't believe for a second that anyone will naturally volunteer to pay more than the legal minimum says they have to. That flows back to the looking after number one I describe earlier. For those that do, that flows back to the ego massaging or positive impressions that I described earlier.

Edited August 8, 2021 by ECCOnoob

[banjodeano 31]

6 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Well as you are doing so well for yourself above others give it all the way then. Share your rewards. Let those who cannot or will not work as hard as you did embrace some of the lifestyle and standards that you have.

 

Assume you won't be right?    this is the point I'm trying to make.  

you have gone from one extreme to the other, firstly a dog eats dog scenario and everyone back stab each other, to "well give all your money away. then".... is there not any middle ground, perhaps he has his own business and is quite happy to pay his employees a generous wage etc

[hackey lad 3,968]

Perhaps 

[ECCOnoob 1,040]

1 hour ago, Anna B said:

Well that certainly describes the Conservative party and the majority of its supporters. But what a picture you paint of the human condition. It's attitudes such as these that will /is leading to the downfall of the human race. It's bigger than politics. If we have learnt nothing from the pandemic,  environmental destruction and consequent global warming, surely we have at least learned that we have to work together whether we like it or not to ensure the continued stability and sustainability of the species. In the end, Nature is no respecter of wealth, race, rank or position. You can't hide away in your nuclear bunker from this one.     

You see, there you go again.

 

Straight away head back in the Sand....   la la la la la la......it's all the fault of the Tory Party and nasty conservative supporters.

 

It is not some fantasist picture I am painting of the human condition it is human condition.

 

You are quite right in saying there is a massive problem. But going around telling everyone who doesn't vote your chosen party that they are ignorant, racist, bigoted, selfish, greedy, rich, corporate monsters is certainly not going to help solve it.  Attitudes do need to change and people do need to work together but that includes extreme left too,  who at the moment are so far up their own they can't even see where to begin.

18 minutes ago, banjodeano said:

you have gone from one extreme to the other, firstly a dog eats dog scenario and everyone back stab each other, to "well give all your money away. then".... is there not any middle ground, perhaps he has his own business and is quite happy to pay his employees a generous wage etc

I'm just trying to find ways of demonstrating with reality.

 

Yes of course there can be middle ground. Perhaps he does have his own business and he's happy to pay his employees a generous wage which is perhaps well above average......

 

But then what happens if the business starts to fail.  What does the employer do then in reality, it will be protect number one, salvage, cut down laying off employees and ensure they keep their own roof over their head. Those employees will in turn fight for their positions against other colleages.

 

See what I mean.

[banjodeano 31]

7 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

You see, there you go again.

 

Straight away head back in the Sand....   la la la la la la......it's all the fault of the Tory Party and nasty conservative supporters.

 

It is not some fantasist picture I am painting of the human condition it is human condition.

 

You are quite right in saying there is a massive problem. But going around telling everyone who doesn't vote your chosen party that they are ignorant, racist, bigoted, selfish, greedy, rich, corporate monsters is certainly not going to help solve it.  Attitudes do need to change and people do need to work together but that includes extreme left too,  who at the moment are so far up their own they can't even see where to begin.

I'm just trying to find ways of demonstrating with reality.

 

Yes of course there can be middle ground. Perhaps he does have his own business and he's happy to pay his employees a generous wage which is perhaps well above average......

 

But then what happens if the business starts to fail.  What does the employer do then in reality, it will be protect number one, salvage, cut down laying off employees and ensure they keep their own roof over their head. Those employees will in turn fight for their positions against other colleages.

 

See what I mean.

Perhaps some people will, it is not something  that i personally have ever done, nor would i ever do, my pride would never allow me to do that

I think i must be a dinosaur with old fashioned values..

[ECCOnoob 1,040]

39 minutes ago, horribleblob said:

 

 

However, I don't necessarily agree with the below as I have a couple of lawyer friends who do honestly care about people, are not out to backstab just to climb up the greasy pole, and they do believe in a "caring sharing society" of the kind that ECCOnoob seems to disparage.

 

You can care for people. You can have much interest and passion in your work. But they are still being paid. Renumerated to do a job.  

 

I assume they will have worked hard through law school, they would have battled and fought with others to to gain a heavily sought-after and limited training contract, they would have got through their training by impressing various Partners and management in order to successfully obtain a position with the firms and, as they are now on the career ladder you're not going to tell me that at some point they will not/have not seek advancement to higher grades or even partnership.

 

Let's not try and pretend that we do these things out of sheer self-sacrifice.

[hackey lad 3,968]

1 hour ago, The Joker said:

Your attitude scares me.

 

I'm from a poor background and I've done well for myself through hard work and good fortune, but for you to say that I'm not concerned about my fellow man, and would happily stab them in the back . . . I think that says more about you than it does me.

 

Am I right in thinking you're a lawyer?  Maybe that's your problem.

 

 

Sir Starmer is a lawyer . Does he have the same problem that you are pointing out ?