The Labour Party - Part 2

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

The FPTP system has worked just fine for hundreds of years in our country by normally ensuring the party that wins the most seats form a government and are able to govern independently.  It works just fine for the voter because they know if the candidate they choose on the ballot paper wins the most votes that person becomes their own MP. We saw what happened during the time of the rogue parliament  when all the main opposition parties blocked everything  the Prime Minister wanted to do.  A PR system would make the actions of the rogue parliament the norm.

 

There is no justification to change a voting system which has proved to be the best system to deliver stable governments that serve for a full term just to appease  a sad bunch of anti Tory cry babies who have no genuine respect for democracy.

You don't know what democracy is. Embarrassing.

[Anna B 1,401]

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

The FPTP system has worked just fine for hundreds of years in our country by normally ensuring the party that wins the most seats form a government and are able to govern independently.  It works just fine for the voter because they know if the candidate they choose on the ballot paper wins the most votes that person becomes their own MP. We saw what happened during the time of the rogue parliament  when all the main opposition parties blocked everything  the Prime Minister wanted to do.  A PR system would make the actions of the rogue parliament the norm.

 

There is no justification to change a voting system which has proved to be the best system to deliver stable governments that serve for a full term just to appease  a sad bunch of anti Tory cry babies who have no genuine respect for democracy.

FPTP is actually a rare form of democracy, not used very much elsewhere in the world, and is based on a confrontational two party system. It may have worked back in the day of Whigs and Tories, but we now have more than two parties which is why it no longer works properly. We now have governments which have been voted for by little more than a third of the population. 

 

It swings from one very different ethos to the other with changing governments, which makes it burdensome,  and slow to act, and hampers long term planning. It's an expensive, outmoded system in a fast paces world, which needs to change to reflect the times. The second house needs major reform as well.

 

Other countries manage very well with other (better?) systems. Maybe we should look further afield for ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[the_bloke 17]

On 11/10/2021 at 19:05, L00b said:

How on earth could that be responded to, when Germany never had FPTP? 🤔

 

Why were you inviting the contrast of UK vs. German government performance and success in post #1793 if you can't attribute the supposed success of Germany to PR then? Was it just for yet another dig at the UK?

[Anna B 1,401]

2 hours ago, West 77 said:

Okay in your opinion the mother of parliaments should follow other countries which have unstable governments such as Italy.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating and our FPTP system has delivered Liberal, Tory and even Labour stable governments over the centuries of democracy in our great country.   Germany are suffering election chaos and their people will be lucky to have a new government anytime this year.  The reason why our country is called Great Britain is because we don't follow foreign countries and have no need to look further afield for ideas especially on issues such has running our own democracy and electing our own governments.

This attitude is a good example of what's wrong with this country. It's arrogant and archaic. Our methods of government were originally built by Aristocrats for Aristocrats and couldn't be further from democracy, but those attitudes still persist in some of our politicians belief that they are born to rule. It also more than evident in our second 'House of Lords.'

 

Just because we were the first (debatable) to build a parliament in a similar style to its current form, doesn't make it the best, nor mean that it cannot be improved.  Times change, the ability to adapt and change with it, is an important aspect of survival; others have built on it, tweaked it and improved it, and we can always learn from others, again to think otherwise is arrogant beyond belief. 

 

As for the 'centuries of democracy,' that is also debatable. Overall, the Tories, the modern equivalents of the old Aristos, still dominate through a quirk of our forelock tugging, class riddled society. The Liberal party were only in power when it was one of two parties. The Labour party is barely a century old, Universal suffrage didn't come in until the 1920's and we were one of the last western countries to adopt it, and don't get me started on the rotten buroughs of the 18th and 19th centuries etc. 

 

When I watch TV coverage of our overblown Parliament I am appalled at how ponderous, slow moving and unfit for purpose it looks. Compared with modern, purpose built debating chambers in other countries (including Scotland,) it's anachronistic. They have all the advantages of modern technology and look like progressive, efficient places of work. I also suspect they are cheaper to run. The world has changed, we are no longer masters of the Empire, if we want to stay ahead of the game we have to change with it.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Anna B

[the_bloke 17]

Interesting that people keep mentioning the word 'democracy' yet both PR and FPTP meet the dictionary definition of the word. Something is either democratic, or it isn't.

 

Imagine voting in an election in September, and the previous government stays in power until all the back room agreements and hand shaking are complete.. say by Christmas? Maybe by Christmas? If you don't feel FPTP is democratic, how do you feel about voting out a Government only for it to remain in power until some arbitrary point in the future? Isn't the record something like a year and a half in Belgium?

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-coalition-formal-talks-likely-spd-fdp-greens/

 

Going back on topic:

 

`'We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.' - Labour 1997 Manifesto

 

Then after they actually won:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/may/24/uk.election200111 - `Blair accused of breaking promise on voting reform`

[L00b 441]

23 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

Why were you inviting the contrast of UK vs. German government performance and success in post #1793 if you can't attribute the supposed success of Germany to PR then?

 Have I not?

24 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

Was it just for yet another dig at the UK?

I don’t take digs at “the UK” itself much. There isn’t much about “the UK” to take digs at.
 

I take digs essentially at the last couple of UK governments, and their supporters. Now that’s a target-rich environment 😆

[tinfoilhat 11]

18 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

Interesting that people keep mentioning the word 'democracy' yet both PR and FPTP meet the dictionary definition of the word. Something is either democratic, or it isn't.

 

Imagine voting in an election in September, and the previous government stays in power until all the back room agreements and hand shaking are complete.. say by Christmas? Maybe by Christmas? If you don't feel FPTP is democratic, how do you feel about voting out a Government only for it to remain in power until some arbitrary point in the future? Isn't the record something like a year and a half in Belgium?

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-coalition-formal-talks-likely-spd-fdp-greens/

 

Going back on topic:

 

`'We are committed to a referendum on the voting system for the House of Commons. An independent commission on voting systems will be appointed early to recommend a proportional alternative to the first-past-the-post system.' - Labour 1997 Manifesto

 

Then after they actually won:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/may/24/uk.election200111 - `Blair accused of breaking promise on voting reform`

Well of course Labour weren't going to change anything in 97, they won by a landslide!

[Anna B 1,401]

5 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Similarly the Liberal party didn't change anything when they won a landslide in 1906. 

 

The anti Tory / anti democratic mob have short memories because after the 2017 general election result the DUP were accused of accepting a bung to keep the Tories in power.  A PR system would result in similar allegations  by sore losers after ever general election.  The good thing about FPTP is that it's normally the electorate who decide who governs our country and not politicians behind closed doors. 

Short memories? The Labour party didn't even exist in 1906 and the Liberals have never won since. 

 

If you believe that you'll believe anything...  I would argue that our governments are decided by the Tory owned media and whatever message they decide to put out.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Anna B

[crookesey 625]

One Party leader who was left of Lenin versus another who was right of Reagan made my mind up that I would never again vote for any party who’s leader I didn’t have total confidence in. You can have whatever electoral system you like but still end up with a muppet as PM, no thanks.

[altus 534]

3 hours ago, West 77 said:

Okay in your opinion the mother of parliaments should follow other countries which have unstable governments such as Italy.  The proof of the pudding is in the eating and our FPTP system has delivered Liberal, Tory and even Labour stable governments over the centuries of democracy in our great country.   Germany are suffering election chaos and their people will be lucky to have a new government anytime this year.  The reason why our country is called Great Britain is because we don't follow foreign countries and have no need to look further afield for ideas especially on issues such has running our own democracy and electing our own governments.

I'd echo Anna's comments about being first not meaning best nor capable of later improvement.

 

Germany has stable governments under PR. It's not PR that causes Italy's political instabilities.

 

Neither is Germany "suffering election chaos". They'd rather wait a few weeks and get a good coalition forming the government rather than rush and risk getting a bad, unstable one.

 

Someone who claims to be as patriotic as you do should know that our country is not called Great Britain. The biggest island of our country is called "Great" to distinguish it from other parts of the British Isles and from the Duchy of Brittany. If you want to call our country Great Britain you'll have to wait for the reunification of Ireland - still, Brexit is hastening that so you might not have long to wait.

[Hotmale 1954 201]

It's amazing how Right Wingers insist that (usually) around 32 to 35 per cent of the Electorate have the majority vote and therefore, their choice of Party has a  Mandate to run the country. As on Twitter and Facebook, the conversations are always the same. If we're guided by some Cons, some Lab, some Libs and some Greens and they arrive at an acceptable policy, then great. Anyone who doesn't like that criteria must have very serious motives for avoiding it.

It has to be better than one minority Party saying you will work for £8-91 an hour and until you're 70 years old.

There is no fairer system than one man, one vote. If there's 10 of us deciding which pub to go in and 7 say 'A' and 3 say 'B', then we go in A.

If me and 6  others find ourselves in 'B', then we will soon fall out with the other 3.

For numeric purposes, I'll say that 65 to 70 per cent of the Electorate usually don't vote for the Conservatives. Usually. How come, the Tories have been in power for most of the last 50 years?

2019 was a bit of an exception because of the Murdoch Press anti Corbyn campaign, so the percentage voting for Johnson was cosmetically higher. The majority of the country have suffered Conservative rule, rather than have benefitted from it.

 

The reason I, as a Labour supporter am in favour of PR, is because I welcome discussion and disagreement from relevant other viewpoints.

Tories, on the other hand, will not tolerate anyone else's view.

It's domination, or nothing for them.

As said before, Germany's coalition Governments have been far superior to our sorry lot for many years.

They're financially superior, which to me is a secondary consideration, but  they easily have better Social structures and most probably, a more contented population.

 

Given one man, one vote, I'd wager that the  Conservatives would never again be the dominant ruling Party.

That would suit me forever. I dislike their policies with a passion.

Like me, most of the country (as is reflected in the numbers, year after year)  would relish our standards to be  decided by 5 or 6 opinions, that hugely, dislike and even detest the unchallenged standards and policies inflicted on us by the 33%.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Hotmale 1954

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

Similarly the Liberal party didn't change anything when they won a landslide in 1906. 

 

The anti Tory / anti democratic mob have short memories because after the 2017 general election result the DUP were accused of accepting a bung to keep the Tories in power.  A PR system would result in similar allegations  by sore losers after ever general election.  The good thing about FPTP is that it's normally the electorate who decide who governs our country and not politicians behind closed doors. 

Still nonsense.