The Labour Party - Part 2

[Organgrinder 1,946]

54 minutes ago, El Cid said:

As I understand, its members like yourself that set the policies. They dont set policies when an election is years away, things may change.

It would be pointless to have a policy in 2021 to increase corporation tax, when the Toris have promised to raise it. Dont you agree?

No, I don't agree at all.

When Corbyn was the leader, he made clear to everyone what his policies were if he became Prime Minister - for instance -

We knew he was going to take into public ownership Railways, Gas, Electricity, Water etc,

Build x number of affordable homes

Abolish Universal credit and replace it with a fair system

Provide free high speed internet

and so on

 

Starmer never talks about what he wants to do or will do  except from giving nurses a pay rise (which I applaud)

He berates Boris everyday, as his job entails but, apart from saying that the Tories are getting it wrong, he never says what he would do instead.

We STILL need to know what Starmer would do.

 

Your next post has just arrived and I will answer it now -

We are discussing the LABOUR party and not past mistakes Johnson has made.

I acknowledge that Johnson has made many mistakes but, as I am not a Tory fan or a Tory voter, I am not responsible for that and, at this moment, I am not discussing that.

 

I have already acknowledged Starmer's part in trying to get the nurses their pay rise and I applaud that but, this is the only positive thing he has done up until now

and this is the only subject where I know what his views are and what his future intentions are if he were to become Prime Minister.

I do not need telling what is in the media because I am already fully aware of this, which is why I am complaining about Starmer's  refusal to pin his colours to the mast.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

1 minute ago, andyofborg said:

They won't have decided the policies yet. If they were announced now they would look stale by the next election  so they won't be.  

 

If you are so concerned then why not get involved in the policy development process that way you would get at least some idea of where things are going. 

What would you do about these things?

 

 

With no policies, they will get no votes.

I Labour still believes in more privatisation for instance, then this policy is already decided and should be spelled out.

You are all hedging here because none of you know what Labour policies are and you know I am right when I say this. You obviously trust Labour to do the right things whilst I and many others don't.

That's why Labour are still behind in the polls and it is accepted that if there was an election now, Labour would lose.

 

I am concerned about many many things on this planet along with Labours performance but as I am not superman, I have neither the time, the energy or the inclination to do things which other people are getting highly paid to do.

Let them do the job which they are being paid for or make way for someone else to do it properly.

There are many situations where I would do things differently from ALL our politicians but, as I am asking no one to support or vote for me, I do not need to spell them out for you.

Just remember that Starmer doesn't just have to persuade me if he wants to win the next election but the very many who also think like I do and didn't support them in the last election.

[andyofborg 11]

59 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

With no policies, they will get no votes.

I Labour still believes in more privatisation for instance, then this policy is already decided and should be spelled out.

You are all hedging here because none of you know what Labour policies are and you know I am right when I say this. You obviously trust Labour to do the right things whilst I and many others don't.

Most of us do not expect to have policies at this point in the election cycle. Other than things like the SNP wanting independence for Scotland and similar none of the parties, particularly the opposition parties, will have any policies for the next election now. 

 

To expect them to is unrealistic. 

59 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

That's why Labour are still behind in the polls and it is accepted that if there was an election now, Labour would lose.

If there was an election now then the polices would have been finalised, announced and everyone would know what they are. 

59 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Let them do the job which they are being paid for or make way for someone else to do it properly.

So why aren't you letting them do this?

59 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

Just remember that Starmer doesn't just have to persuade me if he wants to win the next election but the very many who also think like I do and didn't support them in the last election.

There are many people who the parties need to appeal to in order to win or retain control at the next election. Some of whom will have competing needs and ambitions. The whole set of polices needs to be developed, reviewed, balanced to ensure everyone has something and costed before they are presented to the general public. 

 

 

 

[Organgrinder 1,946]

34 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

 

So why aren't you letting them do this?

I don't understand what this means.

Who are we referring to and what are they trying to do and how am I preventing this?

By all means defend Starmer against views such as mine but if he doesn't have a single aim except give the nurses a pay rise then he won't change minds like mine and won't last long.

Who would think that all he's up against is a government who have made one mistake after another and given us the biggest death toll in Europe and turned against the very people they were clapping.

If he can't cut it now, he never will.

I'll be very surprised if he is still leader at the next election.

[andyofborg 11]

17 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

I don't understand what this means.

Who are we referring to and what are they trying to do and how am I preventing this?

I meant these people:

 

Let them do the job which they are being paid for or make way for someone else to do it properly.

 

You aren't preventing them doing anything. I can understand you being impatient for policied but to do the job right takes time, even more so under the current conditions, and involves lots of people. 

 

Quote

By all means defend Starmer against views such as mine but if he doesn't have a single aim except give the nurses a pay rise then he won't change minds like mine and won't last long.

His aims are quite clear and all over the media should you care to look. How those aims are converted into specific policies is the process which is being gone through now. 

Quote

Who would think that all he's up against is a government who have made one mistake after another and given us the biggest death toll in Europe and turned against the very people they were clapping.

If he can't cut it now, he never will.

He has been quite effective challenging Johnson at PMQs and Parliament. However, if he goes in too hard then people complain about how he should be supporting the government more during this time of crisis.

 

The government seem to have got a "vaccine bounce" in the polls at the minute. Once everyone is vaccinated then people will start to consder the overall governement performance and the gap will narrow or reverse. 

Quote

I'll be very surprised if he is still leader at the next election.

We will see. 

[Organgrinder 1,946]

My impatience doesn't make any difference. He is the first leader in many years who will not express anything  about his own preferences.

Did he go into politics without any aims at all and just rely on a group of people making up some policies for him when it approaches election time.

I've already stated that I knew what Corbyn wanted to do from the moment he took leadership.

 

His aims are not clear at all except to the people who believe everything the Daily mirror says, which is pure guesswork anyway.

 

The biggest laugh of the week that Starmer has been challenging Johnson at the despatch box. He has, for the most part come off worst.

You admit yourself that he dare not go in too hard and that's because he can't think of an alternative.

 

I agree there is a vaccine bounce in play but Johnson has earned that - it didn't come about on it's own although it is probably the only thing he has got right.

Your confidence that the electorates opinions will change when we are all vaccinated tickles me but if makes Starmers supporters feel better then fine, until you get an unexpected Kinnock result AGAIN.

Starmer wanted to stay inside the European Vaccine  club so he would have had a bounce downward , had he been in charge.

 

We sure will see but I expect to be dissapointed because I want to see a Labour Government again but hopes are pinned to the wrong guy and you can't govern sitting on a fence.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Organgrinder

[El Cid 219]

5 hours ago, Organgrinder said:

No, I don't agree at all.

When Corbyn was the leader, he made clear to everyone what his policies were if he became Prime Minister - for instance -

We knew he was going to take into public ownership Railways, Gas, Electricity, Water etc,

Build x number of affordable homes

Abolish Universal credit and replace it with a fair system

Provide free high speed internet and so on

We know what the Conservative are doing now, but we dont know what their policies are for the next election. You are just anti-Labour, so voters like you may just cause another Conservative Government.

[Organgrinder 1,946]

Just now, El Cid said:

We know what the Conservative are doing now, but we dont know what their policies are for the next election. You are just anti-Labour, so voters like you may just cause another Conservative Government.

I am not anti-labour, I am anti Starmer.

You obviously don't read my posts properly or you would know that.

I would like to see a Labour Government but not a right leaning Blairite Government and that would be the result if Starmer led it.

I would have voted for the Corbyn led Labour party but they decided that they didn't want to honour the Brexit vote.

I have already said that I voted Labour for around 60 Years but I will not support a Labour party with Tory policies and I will not support a Labour party that breaks it's word.

If voters like me cause another Conservative Government, it will be because Labour have lost their core values and thereby, lost us voters too.

[Delbow 699]

43 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

I am not anti-labour, I am anti Starmer.

You obviously don't read my posts properly or you would know that.

I would like to see a Labour Government but not a right leaning Blairite Government and that would be the result if Starmer led it.

I would have voted for the Corbyn led Labour party but they decided that they didn't want to honour the Brexit vote.

I have already said that I voted Labour for around 60 Years but I will not support a Labour party with Tory policies and I will not support a Labour party that breaks it's word.

If voters like me cause another Conservative Government, it will be because Labour have lost their core values and thereby, lost us voters too.

I think a lot of this is pretty hard to argue with. Compared to climate change, the ever-greater challenge of automation, and the societal problems caused by a decade of austerity, Brexit was and is a sideshow. Does anyone really think that the Brexit enthusiasts of Lincolnshire are going to give a stuff about sovereignty when most of their fruit and veg picking is done by machines and half the county is under the sea? Brexit was a trap that Labour fell into, letting it dominate politics in a disproportionate way. Corbyn could have just agreed to go along with it, get it out of the way, and focused on what really matters. Now, with a cipher of a man in charge, they trail massively to a government of incompetents who seem to spend most of their time giving our money to their friends. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Delbow

[taxman 12]

27 minutes ago, Organgrinder said:

 

If voters like me cause another Conservative Government, it will be because Labour have lost their core values and thereby, lost us voters too.

And you will have cut off your nose to spite your face...Labour may have lost their core values but you'd be happy with Tory values instead.

 

A plague on both their houses.

[El Cid 219]

19 minutes ago, taxman said:

And you will have cut off your nose to spite your face...Labour may have lost their core values but you'd be happy with Tory values instead.

 

A plague on both their houses.

Maybe Organgrinder has a negative view of Starmer, but votes tactically in Sheffield?  Who do you vote for locally?

[Ridgewalk 100]

45 minutes ago, taxman said:

And you will have cut off your nose to spite your face...Labour may have lost their core values but you'd be happy with Tory values instead.

 

A plague on both their houses.

I've only ever voted Labour, (I'm 67), I'm still a member of the Party,  only because people I respect have convinced me not to leave, but I'll not be voting Labour again.  I'm just one person and obviously one vote but can't in all conscience vote for a party that has chosen to elect a superficial careerist with as much depth as a thimble as leader.