The Labour Party - Part 2

[Pettytom 1]

46 minutes ago, banjodeano said:

Tom. You know full well  my thoughts about anti-Semitism claims within the party, why do you ask such a question when you already know my thoughts on the matter?, I have no intention of going over old ground for the umpteenth time.

I asked, because you made the comment.

 

It seems to chime with the subset of the Labour Party who think that a bit of racism is ok.
 

So let’s leave it there.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Pettytom

[altus 538]

11 hours ago, Anna B said:

Political correctness is stifling free speech. When every little word spoken is picked over and analysed to find offence, then offence will be found. The 'intention' is what matters, if no offence was intended then no offence should be taken, except for the grossest infringement good taste.  

It's often impossible to tell the difference between careless words that can be reasonably read as causing offence and carefully chosen words meant to cause offence but providing just enough ambiguity to allow a claim of 'I didn't mean it like that'. The latter is a deliberate tactic of some who mean to cause offence but aren't honest enough to own it. If anyone is insensitive enough to repeatedly do the former they shouldn't get upset when people assume they are doing the latter.

[banjodeano 31]

2 hours ago, Pettytom said:

I asked, because you made the comment.

 

It seems to chime with the subset of the Labour Party who think that a bit of racism is ok.
 

So let’s leave it there.

Yeah let's leave it there Tom, I have made myself clear many times, I can't really be bothered to go over old ground yet again..

[Arnold_Lane 0]

On 02/11/2020 at 20:15, banjodeano said:

I have no idea,  but data was collected and acted upon, also  from what i recall they didnt want to submit the report due to legal advice

Is that the report you kept telling people to read but hadn't read yourself?  The one with an executive summary which reads:

 

This report thoroughly disproves any suggestion that antisemitism is not a problem in the Party, or that it is all a “smear” or a “witch-hunt”. The report’s findings prove the scale of the problem, and could help end the denialism amongst parts of the Party membership which has further hurt Jewish members and the Jewish community.

 

Sadly, it seems it did little to end denialism.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Arnold_Lane

[Car Boot 10]

Labour should apologise for Brexit policy, say key Corbyn allies

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54896340

 

"Two key members of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet have called for the party to issue a '"full throated apology" for its stance on Brexit. Ex-party chairman Ian Lavery and former elections chief Jon Trickett say backing a second referendum at last year's election destroyed trust."

 

Labour could and should have won last year's general election if it had only stuck to  the Jeremy Corbyn life long view on the EU - that we should Leave. Labour has traditionally been an anti-EU party, until the affluent middle-class purged it of the majority of its working class members under Tony Blair.

 

It's stance last year on Brexit was horrific - cancelling the votes of millions of working class people , including the votes of many Labour supporters. Keir Starmer, an out of touch posh boy, was behind this policy and should apologise to voters for his position of holding a second EU referendum because the middle class members in his party didn't like the result of the June 2016 vote.

 

The reason the Tories won the election was because of their 'Get Brexit Done' policy.

 

Labour lost because the Remain fanatics in the party made Leave voters think they couldn't trust  it to deliver the democratic outcome of the referendum.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Car Boot

[Mister M 1,609]

1 hour ago, Car Boot said:

Labour should apologise for Brexit policy, say key Corbyn allies

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54896340

 

"Two key members of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet have called for the party to issue a '"full throated apology" for its stance on Brexit. Ex-party chairman Ian Lavery and former elections chief Jon Trickett say backing a second referendum at last year's election destroyed trust."

 

Labour could and should have won last year's general election if it had only stuck to  the Jeremy Corbyn life long view on the EU - that we should Leave. Labour has traditionally been an anti-EU party, until the affluent middle-class purged it of the majority of its working class members under Tony Blair.

 

It's stance last year on Brexit was horrific - cancelling the votes of millions of working class people - including the votes of many Labour supporters. Keir Starmer, an out of touch posh boy, was behind this policy and should apologise to voters for his position of holding a second EU referendum because the middle class members in his party didn't like the result of the June 2016 vote.

I think this is a case of confirmation bias. 

You've found an article which highlights your own world view, and taken it as the truth.  

 

From memory, it wasn't Labour's Brexit policy that lost the last election, most people on the doorstep cited Jeremy Corbyn as the key reason for their decision not to vote Labour. Should Jeremy Corbyn apologise for allowing anti semitism to flourish under Labour? Should Lavery and Trickett apologise for Labour's last manifesto which seemed to voters like one long, unaffordable wish list of policies?

 

You've highlighted the issue of class as some key factor of the election, as if that's the key determinant, and that voters view the world through that prism. In my experience they don't. Some working class voters are leavers, others are remainers. Some vote Tory, others vote Labour, or Liberal Democrat or independent candidates. Some working class voters are Jewish and were disgusted by the racism flourishing in Labour under Jeremy Corbyn, others might not have cared. 

 

I've not read the report, but the view point that all working class Labour voters are leavers, and its middle class members are remainers and affluent, is simplistic and extremely patronising. To say that Kier Starmer as some 'out of touch posh boy' is just stupid playground politics. Attlee was a posh boy, and so were many members of his Government, didn't stop the policies they introduced being transformational did it?

 

Labour's victories in elections where it introduced policies which improved the lives of the working class, and middle class, were secured under leaderships which were non sectional and inclusive. Such as Attlee's Government of 1945, or Wilson's Governments of 1964. I won't quote Blair's because you'd only say that he's a middle class entryist who did nothing to imrove the lives of working class people.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Mister M

[Flanker7 20]

3 hours ago, Car Boot said:

Labour could and should have won last year's general election if it had only stuck to  the Jeremy Corbyn life long view on the EU - that we should Leave.

This is incorrect Corbyn was in favour of remaining in the EU by a score of 7/10. At least he did at the time of the General election.

Has he changed his mind, again.  So much for the high minded hero of socialism who sticks to his ideals no matter what?

[Ridgewalk 97]

22 minutes ago, Flanker7 said:

This is incorrect Corbyn was in favour of remaining in the EU by a score of 7/10. At least he did at the time of the General election.

Has he changed his mind, again.  So much for the high minded hero of socialism who sticks to his ideals no matter what?

I thinks that's  a misunderstanding of how the Labour Party makes policy, although I'm not certain.  The National Conference makes policy, and that, I believe was to support staying in the EU. Corbyn as party leader had to go along with policy.

 

Nothing particularly socialist about wanting to stay inside the EU or leave it, arguments on both sides.

 

If you don't like Corbyn you don't like him. Simple as.

 

Just to add. As someone who canvassed for the Labour Party I can confirm that many houses I called at were against staying in the EU and  Labours inability to acknowledge that was a major factor in people not voting Labour. Not the sole reason though.

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Ridgewalk
.....

[L00b 441]

24 minutes ago, Flanker7 said:

This is incorrect Corbyn was in favour of remaining in the EU by a score of 7/10. At least he did at the time of the General election.

Has he changed his mind, again.  So much for the high minded hero of socialism who sticks to his ideals no matter what?

The commentariat (recent Grauniad article about 'the 5') would have it, that Corbyn's main aim was to get May out and provoke a GE, and that he allied with the ultras to secure that outcome.

 

I don't believe that he ever had a policy about Brexit, as in for or against, but just what was politically useful and expedient towards that main aim. But in that respect, I don't think that he understood its toxicity either, at any time.

 

Starmer may be more clear-cut about it ideologically, but he's making the exact same mistake as Corbyn politically: whatever mess Brexit turns into in a couple of month's time, the Tories won't wear it or own it, and he won't get them to wear or own it either, short-term or in 4 years's time.

 

[alchresearch 214]

5 hours ago, Car Boot said:

Labour should apologise for Brexit policy, say key Corbyn allies

 

"Two key members of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow cabinet have called for the party to issue a '"full throated apology" for its stance on Brexit. Ex-party chairman Ian Lavery and former elections chief Jon Trickett say backing a second referendum at last year's election destroyed trust."

 

 

Lavery is nothing more than a rabble rouser, bitter because his beloved leader isn't any more.

 

Ex-Labour chair Ian Lavery warns of civil war as members 'incensed' over Jeremy Corbyn suspension

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/ex-labour-chair-ian-lavery-19193419

 

Labour civil war: Corbyn supporting MPs could quit party after ex-leaders’ suspension

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1354648/Labour-Party-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-MPs-suspension-Sir-Keir-Starmer-Boris-Johnson

 

If Labour is to return to mainstream politics they need to put Corbyn behind them, just like they did with Kinnoch.

 

In fact, I wish they would leave and form their own party.    Lets see how many have the guts to do so.

Edited November 12, 2020 by alchresearch

[melthebell 862]

1 hour ago, alchresearch said:

Lavery is nothing more than a rabble rouser, bitter because his beloved leader isn't any more.

 

Ex-Labour chair Ian Lavery warns of civil war as members 'incensed' over Jeremy Corbyn suspension

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/ex-labour-chair-ian-lavery-19193419

 

Labour civil war: Corbyn supporting MPs could quit party after ex-leaders’ suspension

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1354648/Labour-Party-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-MPs-suspension-Sir-Keir-Starmer-Boris-Johnson

 

If Labour is to return to mainstream politics they need to put Corbyn behind them, just like they did with Kinnoch.

 

In fact, I wish they would leave and form their own party.    Lets see how many have the guts to do so.

they wont, they have a ready supplied voter base, trouble is with essentially 2 parties inside fighting it splits the party, splits the voters and the tories stay in power ad infinitum

Edited November 12, 2020 by melthebell

[banjodeano 31]

1 hour ago, alchresearch said:

Lavery is nothing more than a rabble rouser, bitter because his beloved leader isn't any more.

 

Ex-Labour chair Ian Lavery warns of civil war as members 'incensed' over Jeremy Corbyn suspension

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/ex-labour-chair-ian-lavery-19193419

 

Labour civil war: Corbyn supporting MPs could quit party after ex-leaders’ suspension

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1354648/Labour-Party-news-Jeremy-Corbyn-MPs-suspension-Sir-Keir-Starmer-Boris-Johnson

 

If Labour is to return to mainstream politics they need to put Corbyn behind them, just like they did with Kinnoch.

 

In fact, I wish they would leave and form their own party.    Lets see how many have the guts to do so.

Why should they leave and form their own party? The labour party is a natural place for the left, whereas somewhere like the Dems seem a natural place for the right ..