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The Conservative Party - Part Two.

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3 hours ago, Carbuncle said:

The "high skill, high wage" is particularly dishonest in the context of Brexit where the main effect, at least in the short term, is "same or lower skill, high wage" because Brexit has created a shortage in particular areas where none existed before.

University courses that allow students to become nurses and doctors. I dont see how a good education is a negative for anyone, high or low immigration is a different issue.

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3 hours ago, the_bloke said:

It's like the idea of getting every school leaver to go to university to study watered down courses after scraping an E in a single A level hasn't worked well in the long run isn't it.

Ah, now don't go questioning the 'right' to higher education far all!

 

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26 minutes ago, El Cid said:

University courses that allow students to become nurses and doctors. I dont see how a good education is a negative for anyone, high or low immigration is a different issue.

Perhaps, I have it wrong but it seems to me that Boris was trying to make a virtue of necessity. We have certain types of work formerly done by cheap labour from Eastern Europe for which we are now going to have to pay more. Boris has wanted to suggest this paying more is part of a move to a "high skill, high wage" Britain when it is nothing of the kind.

 

You are pointing out a different issues. I have no issue with that but it does not extinguish the validity of the point I was making.

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43 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

I have no issue with that but it does not extinguish the validity of the point I was making.

Employers do need to suffer in order for them to increase workers pay. I had a cleaner a few months ago, she moved house so it became unviable for her. The going rate may be much higher now.

I can either pay the money or live in squalor  :)

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On 15/10/2021 at 18:36, El Cid said:

Employers do need to suffer in order for them to increase workers pay. I had a cleaner a few months ago, she moved house so it became unviable for her. The going rate may be much higher now.

I can either pay the money or live in squalor  :)

Do you really think businesses and bosses will 'suffer'

Prices and costs will rise to accommodate, any wage rises may be negated by rising food prices etc

 

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50 minutes ago, melthebell said:

Do you really think businesses and bosses will 'suffer'

Prices and costs will rise to accommodate, any wage rises may be negated by rising food prices etc

 

Suffer in the sense that they are appearing in the media saying that there is a shortage of workers, some will suffer from worker shortages.

Such as hospitality that cannot get staff, pig farmers needing to slaughter their own pigs. Thousands of pigs that would have been perfect for human food will probably end up in pet food. So the money paid to the farmer will be much lower.

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2 hours ago, El Cid said:

Suffer in the sense that they are appearing in the media saying that there is a shortage of workers, some will suffer from worker shortages.

Such as hospitality that cannot get staff, pig farmers needing to slaughter their own pigs. Thousands of pigs that would have been perfect for human food will probably end up in pet food. So the money paid to the farmer will be much lower.

It's the pigs that will suffer most.

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On 15/10/2021 at 17:20, El Cid said:

University courses that allow students to become nurses and doctors. I dont see how a good education is a negative for anyone, high or low immigration is a different issue.

I agree education is good, but a degree is not necessary for many jobs. That doesn't make the jobs less worthwhile. If the pandemic has taught us anything it's that these are vital jobs are the ones that we need to keep the economy/society turning. 

Yet in this country they are regarded with disdain and snobbishness, partly because they are underpaid and have no career structure, (but look what the career structure has done to the NHS.*)

This is must less prevalent in other countries, it's all part of our 'class system' so well established it is hard to eradicate. 

 

We must pay blue collar workers well, (by decreasing the overblown incomes further up the chain?) They are essential to our economy and way of life.

 

* Overblown with management. For many nurses getting into management rather than hands on nursing is the only way to climb the greasy pole. 

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4 minutes ago, Anna B said:

I agree education is good, but a degree is not necessary for many jobs. That doesn't make the jobs less worthwhile. If the pandemic has taught us anything it's that these are vital jobs are the ones that we need to keep the economy/society turning. 

Yet in this country they are regarded with disdain and snobbishness, partly because they are underpaid and have no career structure, (but look what the career structure has done to the NHS.*)

This is must less prevalent in other countries, it's all part of our 'class system' so well established it is hard to eradicate. 

 

We must pay blue collar workers well, (by decreasing the overblown incomes further up the chain?) They are essential to our economy and way of life.

 

* Overblown with management. For many nurses getting into management rather than hands on nursing is the only way to climb the greasy pole. 

Indeed! :thumbsup:


And as I've said before...


... being a good nurse does not mean you will be a good manager! :|

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There seems to be a completely no-win situation here. If they bring in a suit to be the qualified manager with all the relevant degrees who knows how to run a department and team of staff efficiently and knows how to manage all the administration competently - they get slagged off for having no real-world experience and the staff resent them because they claim they know how to run things better than the manager.

 

If an ex skilled nurse jumps onto the management ladder they get slagged off for just wanting to work their way up the greasy pole and staff resentment is caused because a former "down to earth, shop floor" colleague is suddenly telling their friends what to do when to do it. Then we have the other tricky situation of whether someone working up from the shop floor has the sufficient academics and qualifications to know competently how to manage a team of staff and the administration.

 

Seems no matter what way they do it, staff never seem to be happy.

Edited by ECCOnoob

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35 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

There seems to be a completely no-win situation here. If they bring in a suit to be the qualified manager with all the relevant degrees who knows how to run a department and team of staff efficiently and knows how to manage all the administration competently - they get slagged off for having no real-world experience and the staff resent them because they claim they know how to run things better than the manager.

 

If an ex skilled nurse jumps onto the management ladder they get slagged off for just wanting to work their way up the greasy pole and staff resentment is caused because a former "down to earth, shop floor" colleague is suddenly telling their friends what to do when to do it. Then we have the other tricky situation of whether someone working up from the shop floor has the sufficient academics and qualifications to know competently how to manage a team of staff and the administration.

 

Seems no matter what way they do it, staff never seem to be happy.

In my experience (in IT), problems with managers 'not knowing the job' only occur when those managers start making technical decisions (think setting clinical priorities in health care). Some of the best managers I've had haven't been subject matter experts but have listened to and trusted the advice from those who are when making decisions. The worst have been those who make technical decisions against the advice of their staff. Formerly technical people who moved into management can often be worse because, as well as not being suited to management in general, they make decisions, against advice, based on their out of date experience.

 

If you're a senior nurse specialising in echo cardiograms you are more valuable to the organisation than the person who asks you to do a bit of overtime because a colleague has asked for Wednesday afternoon off to take their kid to the dentist. The same applies with senior IT roles and numerous other jobs in numerous other workplaces. Someone straight out of university with a management degree isn't inherently worth more than someone just out of university with a nursing/IT/engineering/etc degree and they certainly aren't worth more than someone with a couple of decades experience in a technical role.

 

It's an endemic problem throughout UK workplaces that employ technical people - the assumption that people who manage necessarily have to be paid more than the people they manage. If your only career path for technical people is into management you will inevitable end up with fewer technical people and more bad managers. It is hugely damaging to UK organisations/companies and negatively impacts the economy.

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A couple of papers are running the story that the Johnsons broke the lockdown rules last Christmas. One rule for us and one rule for them?

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/carrie-johnson-broke-lockdown-friend-25235587

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10097383/Row-allegations-Boris-Carrie-Johnson-broke-Covid-lockdown-rules-Christmas.html

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