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The Conservative Party - Part Two.

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57 minutes ago, whiteowl said:

Agreed. A thing I don't like about the state of modern politics is the tribal approach that seems to have developed. It's almost like football supporters these days.

People see their "team" cannot do wrong and support them regardless of what they get up to, disregarding any negative consequences.

Compromise seems to have gone out of the window - things are either black or white, whereas in reality most things are a shade of grey.

Me bolded.... I'm not so sure that applies too much these days. Many people now like me do not belong to or are a member of any political party and that is shown by the numbers and there are many now who are floating voters (like me) as shown in the last GE. By belonging to a party you are committed to the party view and as you have pointed out won't accept compromise as shown by this and the Labour thread. It seems to be the older people who are generally set in their ways and vote according to how their parents and grandparents voted in the past.

 

57 minutes ago, whiteowl said:

I'm aware this is the Conservative thread but it applies to all political parties and even some cross-party individual issues (Brexit anyone?).

I agree.

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Posted (edited)
On 03/06/2021 at 22:50, Litotes said:

Boris is a proven liar, cheat, sexist, racist and supporter of bullies.

And yet the conservative voters support him and promote him as a role model and leader.

 

What does this say about his supporters?

That they value winning above morals, ethics and standards - so it is very hard to argue against the fact they are morally corrupt...

 

But some in this forum do.

Where were the morals for those MPs in parliament during Theresa May's time as Prime Minister who kept blocking the implementation of Brexit and tried to steal the victory from leave voters who were the majority of the electorate?  The truth is if parliament hadn't been morally corrupt in blocking Brexit then Boris Johnson would never have become Tory leader or Prime Minister.  Boris attracted support and won big in the December 2019 General Election because many traditional Labour voters who voted leave in the EU referendum were furious the way parliament and the Labour party had behaved regarding Brexit.  Boris saved the country that is why he will continue to receive support.

 

20 hours ago, Anna B said:

Surely this is a good reason why we should have PR.

All parties should be working in the interests of what's best for the country not what's best for their party, but more and more it's the interests of the party and it's MPs which seems to win out.

The adversarial nature of British politics doesn't help.

 

The actions of the rogue parliament during Theresa May's time as Prime Minister is a good reason why we should never have PR.  PR is effectively the same as a hung parliament.   PR would mean minority  parties would have the power to block Government policy which is more  anti democratic than democratic.  As a regular Tory voter I would rather the Labour party have a working majority after a General Election than a hung parliament or PR parliament which prevents the party with the largest number of seats carrying out their policies.   The present system has worked fine over hundreds of years because it normally produces a parliament that gives the party that gains the most support from the electorate a working majority in order to rule the country.

 

On 03/06/2021 at 22:36, Shreddie said:

That's very true and why the Tory party will probably ditch him before the electorate. They are usually quick to act when the leader becomes toxic (even if that leader is Maggie).

If Boris isn't Tory leader at the next General Election then it will be his own choice.  The Tory party know there is no one amongst their ranks who will achieve a better General Election result for the Tories  than Boris.  The Tories were lucky to win another term after ditching Margaret Thatcher because Neil Kinnock threw away victory for Labour by acting like a clown at a rally in Sheffield just before the 1992 General Election.

Edited by West 77

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On 03/06/2021 at 22:50, Litotes said:

Boris is a proven liar, cheat, sexist, racist and supporter of bullies.

And yet the conservative voters support him and promote him as a role model and leader.

 

What does this say about his supporters?

That they value winning above morals, ethics and standards - so it is very hard to argue against the fact they are morally corrupt...

 

But some in this forum do.

Things of the past I’m afraid. Fifty eight years ago today a minister admitted lying to Parliament and resigned.  To atone, John Profumo then devoted the rest of his life to helping the poor. How times have changed.
 

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On 05/06/2021 at 08:20, Mister Gee said:

Things of the past I’m afraid. Fifty eight years ago today a minister admitted lying to Parliament and resigned.  To atone, John Profumo then devoted the rest of his life to helping the poor. How times have changed.
 

Haven't they just... 

 

How did it happen? And more importantly, what are we going to do about it?

 

Personally I blame free market economics (or neoliberalism if you like.)

When money and profit became the only thing that's worshipped, when regulations are are lax, poorly enforced or none existent, and the only thing that matters is win and win again by any means fair or foul, you get the dog eat dog kind of world we've got now.

 

And what starts at the top trickles all the way down through society, and impoverishes us all. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Anna B said:

Haven't they just... 

 

How did it happen? And more importantly, what are we going to do about it?

 

Personally I blame free market economics (or neoliberalism if you like.)

When money and profit became the only thing that's worshipped, when regulations are are lax, poorly enforced or none existent, and the only thing that matters is win and win again by any means fair or foul, you get the dog eat dog kind of world we've got now.

 

And what starts at the top trickles all the way down through society, and impoverishes us all. 

 

 

Why on earth are you talking as if this is some new fangled concept?

 

Dog-eat-dog, looking after number one, becoming superior at all costs is the only world we have. It is all there ever was, is now and ever will be.

 

It is simple human,  if not all creatures, basic instinct.

 

The moralistic acts, the looking out for others, the supporting those in need and the charitable gestures we see are done solely for selfish gain. They are done for the purposes of boosting ones own ego or a way of establishing some useful or beneficial contacts or to create a favorable image or other influential impression which can be used for one's own advantage at a later stage or even done simply to protect, at all costs, those offspring or relations directly related to one.

 

It is deluded to think that human nature allows for genuine sacrifice without some form of personal enhancement, benefit or gain in return.

 

That is certainly not going away by a change of government no matter what colour side is in power. 

 

Of course money and profit is worshipped because it's a founding block in our entire society. Money is everything. It is coveted, needed and necessary for the world to go round.  Just like human beings themselves, financial prowess equals power.  Nations have influence by their wealth.  Nations are dog eat dog just as much as everything else.  We could decide to change that, seek to reduce money's influence over our lives, seek to reduce it's impact over our decisions, stop looking at the bottom line all the time....but just how long do you think it would be before one of the developing nations takes advantage and jumps all over us?   What happens then to your moralistic position when suddenly we lose all superiority and become under heavy influence of a less developed, less liberal thinking and potentially less civilised nation.

 

You question how did it happen, as if you turned your back and BOOM the world had changed.  Well, unless you were around pre dinosaur era, it hasn't. You really need to open your eyes to what the world is really like and more importantly always has been.

 

This is not some decline that happened when the Tories took office.  

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36 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Why on earth are you talking as if this is some new fangled concept?

 

Dog-eat-dog, looking after number one, becoming superior at all costs is the only world we have. It is all there ever was, is now and ever will be.

 

It is simple human,  if not all creatures, basic instinct.

 

The moralistic acts, the looking out for others, the supporting those in need and the charitable gestures we see are done solely for selfish gain. They are done for the purposes of boosting ones own ego or a way of establishing some useful or beneficial contacts or to create a favorable image or other influential impression which can be used for one's own advantage at a later stage or even done simply to protect, at all costs, those offspring or relations directly related to one.

 

It is deluded to think that human nature allows for genuine sacrifice without some form of personal enhancement, benefit or gain in return.

 

That is certainly not going away by a change of government no matter what colour side is in power. 

 

Of course money and profit is worshipped because it's a founding block in our entire society. Money is everything. It is coveted, needed and necessary for the world to go round.  Just like human beings themselves, financial prowess equals power.  Nations have influence by their wealth.  Nations are dog eat dog just as much as everything else.  We could decide to change that, seek to reduce money's influence over our lives, seek to reduce it's impact over our decisions, stop looking at the bottom line all the time....but just how long do you think it would be before one of the developing nations takes advantage and jumps all over us?   What happens then to your moralistic position when suddenly we lose all superiority and become under heavy influence of a less developed, less liberal thinking and potentially less civilised nation.

 

You question how did it happen, as if you turned your back and BOOM the world had changed.  Well, unless you were around pre dinosaur era, it hasn't. You really need to open your eyes to what the world is really like and more importantly always has been.

 

This is not some decline that happened when the Tories took office.  

What an absolute cavalcade of bobbar.

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43 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Why on earth are you talking as if this is some new fangled concept?

 

Dog-eat-dog, looking after number one, becoming superior at all costs is the only world we have. It is all there ever was, is now and ever will be.

 

It is simple human,  if not all creatures, basic instinct.

 

The moralistic acts, the looking out for others, the supporting those in need and the charitable gestures we see are done solely for selfish gain. They are done for the purposes of boosting ones own ego or a way of establishing some useful or beneficial contacts or to create a favorable image or other influential impression which can be used for one's own advantage at a later stage or even done simply to protect, at all costs, those offspring or relations directly related to one.

 

It is deluded to think that human nature allows for genuine sacrifice without some form of personal enhancement, benefit or gain in return.

 

That is certainly not going away by a change of government no matter what colour side is in power. 

 

Of course money and profit is worshipped because it's a founding block in our entire society. Money is everything. It is coveted, needed and necessary for the world to go round.  Just like human beings themselves, financial prowess equals power.  Nations have influence by their wealth.  Nations are dog eat dog just as much as everything else.  We could decide to change that, seek to reduce money's influence over our lives, seek to reduce it's impact over our decisions, stop looking at the bottom line all the time....but just how long do you think it would be before one of the developing nations takes advantage and jumps all over us?   What happens then to your moralistic position when suddenly we lose all superiority and become under heavy influence of a less developed, less liberal thinking and potentially less civilised nation.

 

You question how did it happen, as if you turned your back and BOOM the world had changed.  Well, unless you were around pre dinosaur era, it hasn't. You really need to open your eyes to what the world is really like and more importantly always has been.

 

This is not some decline that happened when the Tories took office.  

Even if it were true that for every altruistic act there's a selfish motive behind it, which I don't believe; Governments can and have counterbalanced this with policies which have established and promoted a more civilised and less brutish society.

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3 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

 

 

Sorry, double post

Edited by Anna B

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40 minutes ago, Mister M said:

Even if it were true that for every altruistic act there's a selfish motive behind it, which I don't believe; Governments can and have counterbalanced this with policies which have established and promoted a more civilised and less brutish society.

Yes they do, and we citizens reap the rewards of living under such situation. We selfishly  enjoy the rights, freedoms and protections that our fellow humans elsewhere may not have. We embrace the choices we have (covid exceptions) which includes visiting some so-called poorer and lesser nations to do a bit of gawping and finger pointing, flaunting of our wealth temporarily, exploiting their minimal wages and minimal prices before flying back home to our nice comfortable regime once more.

 

Government's of course get their own advantages by being able to stroke their ego and show to the world how much more superior their choice of regime is to another. They can show how happy their citizens are, how productive, how wealthy thanks to their much better way of working. They can use it as leverage to attract corporations or other investment into their country over others. They can use it to build their power and dominance on the global stage shouting from the rooftops how much better their regime is to other lesser advanced nations, setting out to the world how they should all follow the lead.

 

Everything is done for a reason.

Edited by ECCOnoob

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2 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Yes they do, and we citizens reap the rewards of living under such situation. We selfishly  enjoy the rights, freedoms and protections that our fellow humans elsewhere may not have. We embrace the choices we have (covid exceptions) which includes visiting some so-called poorer and lesser nations to do a bit of gawping and finger pointing, flaunting of our wealth temporarily, exploiting their minimal wages and minimal prices before flying back home to our nice comfortable regime once more.

 

Government's of course get their own advantages by being able to stroke their ego and show to the world how much more superior their choice of regime is to another. They can show how happy their citizens are, how productive, how wealthy thanks to their much better way of working. They can use it as leverage to attract corporations or other investment into their country over others. They can use it to build their power and dominance on the global stage shouting from the rooftops how much better their regime is to other lesser advanced nations, setting out to the world how they should all follow the lead.

 

Everything is done for a reason.

A very cynical reply which suggests you think all this is fine and this is how the world should work.

 

For a start there is nothing 'selfish' about our rights, freedoms and protections. Every single one of them has been hard fought for, often at great personal expense, against powerful opposition from the very people you seem to think we should be grateful to, and who would happily rescind such rights tomorrow, if they thought they could get away with it. We have to be vigilant at all times. Other nations are fighting for their own rights just as we had to do. It's nothing to do with regimes, it's what people are prepared to fight for and defend. 

 

Nor have I ever thought of countries I've been lucky enough to visit as 'lesser nations,' indeed I believe we have much to learn from other cultures especially in these troubled times. I don't 'gawp' or 'flaunt,' I talk and  learn, and am glad my £ helps their economy.

 

As for your last paragraph, 'being able to stroke their own ego' etc is about as shallow as it gets. Nor do they have too much to crow over as there is a good proportion of the country who would beg to differ about levels of happiness / success. Ours is now a very divided country with extremes of wealth and poverty that are a relatively new phenomenon, and we are very much on a downward path while other nations rise to prominence. Empires rise but also fall and our time in the sun may be over. Our overarching hubris is about to be pricked and we might be left wondering after all if cooperation is a much better bet long term than out and out competition.

 

We are not animals, we are thinking, reasoning, civilized human beings with a conscience, who know the difference between right and wrong.

We can and should do better.

Edited by Anna B

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19 hours ago, Anna B said:

A very cynical reply which suggests you think all this is fine and this is how the world should work.

 

For a start there is nothing 'selfish' about our rights, freedoms and protections. Every single one of them has been hard fought for, often at great personal expense, against powerful opposition from the very people you seem to think we should be grateful to, and who would happily rescind such rights tomorrow, if they thought they could get away with it. We have to be vigilant at all times. Other nations are fighting for their own rights just as we had to do. It's nothing to do with regimes, it's what people are prepared to fight for and defend. 

And that is the same argument that terrorists use such as the Suffragette's, IRA, ANC etc.

 

19 hours ago, Anna B said:

Nor have I ever thought of countries I've been lucky enough to visit as 'lesser nations,' indeed I believe we have much to learn from other cultures especially in these troubled times. I don't 'gawp' or 'flaunt,' I talk and  learn, and am glad my £ helps their economy.

Me bolded. Love the cliche....

 

Your £ may help other Nations and Countries you are able to visit and yet you have stated before you are also against the very globalisation which has allowed you to visit said countries....

 

19 hours ago, Anna B said:

As for your last paragraph, 'being able to stroke their own ego' etc is about as shallow as it gets. Nor do they have too much to crow over as there is a good proportion of the country who would beg to differ about levels of happiness / success. Ours is now a very divided country with extremes of wealth and poverty that are a relatively new phenomenon, and we are very much on a downward path while other nations rise to prominence. Empires rise but also fall and our time in the sun may be over. Our overarching hubris is about to be pricked and we might be left wondering after all if cooperation is a much better bet long term than out and out competition.

Me bolded...

 

It's not a new phenomenon though is it. The rich may be richer but the percentage of the relative poor around is much lower. Social conditions, health, housing and general well being are now much better than when workhouses were around and kids swept chimneys and worked down the pits. 

 

19 hours ago, Anna B said:

We are not animals, we are thinking, reasoning, civilized human beings with a conscience, who know the difference between right and wrong.

Me bolded...

 

Yes we are animals and are still driven by our animal instincts. The trouble is that some people just do not want to own up to that fact.

 

19 hours ago, Anna B said:

We can and should do better.

About the only bit I can agree on so a 4/10 from me!

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4 minutes ago, apelike said:

And that is the same argument that terrorists use such as the Suffragette's, IRA, ANC etc.

 

Me bolded. Love the cliche....

 

Your £ may help other Nations and Countries you are able to visit and yet you have stated before you are also against the very globalisation which has allowed you to visit said countries....

 

Me bolded...

 

It's not a new phenomenon though is it. The rich may be richer but the percentage of the relative poor around is much lower. Social conditions, health, housing and general well being are now much better than when workhouses were around and kids swept chimneys and worked down the pits. 

 

Me bolded...

 

Yes we are animals and are still driven by our animal instincts. The trouble is that some people just do not want to own up to that fact.

 

About the only bit I can agree on so a 4/10 from me!

That suggests all countries are the same - the gap between rich and poor is the same, that  politicians are all on the Rob and it's citizens just want to grab as much as they can and **** the rest.

 

Now that is definately the case in this country, and America. I'd suggest Scandinavia has a different have a smaller gap between rich and poor, politicians in New Zealand have voted against a pay rise (or voted for a pay cut) and corruption isn't rife there like it is here. We are not "normal" in this country, compared with an awful lot of others. Whilst you and ecconoob make valid points about here, it's not like that every where.

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