The Conservative Party - Part Two.

[Mister M 1,594]

19 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Only reporting the truth from a respected pollster who continues to carry out her work.  And a Labour supporter herself to boot, apparently. 

 

Aren't facts fantastic?

Facts are fantastic. Pity Boris Johnson is too much of a liar to acquaint himself with them. 

 

[Baron99 772]

11 minutes ago, Mister M said:

Facts are fantastic. Pity Boris Johnson is too much of a liar to acquaint himself with them. 

 

But we weren't discussing Boris per se but what you thought of all those previous Labour, Northern voters who voted Conservative & how they would now view Boris. 

 

Ms Mattison's continued research & interpretation have provided you with an answer to your question.  Whether you like the answer or not, is another matter. 

[El Cid 210]

52 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

Johnson is seen as a capable leader with regards to the pandemic, especially as he also other such issues on his plate such as Brexit.  The vast majority of Northern voters in those once Labour constituencies, just see that it's unfortunate that he has the pandemic to additionally deal with. 

If you Google that, the results are from late March this year. So perhaps only the die hard Boris voters would say that now.

As we have seen from the USA, once people have voted in a leader, some choose not to accept their mistake.

[Baron99 772]

56 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Just trying to verify a couple more facts. Apparently, at the time when Boris said there was 170 trucks sat on the M20 outside Dover, there was actually 945.

And sadly, many of those stuck lorry drivers are Europeans, desperately trying to do their job & trying to get home before Christmas

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/21/lorry-drivers-fear-being-stuck-in-dover-for-christmas-as-borders-close

 

Personally I don't blame the French for shutting the border, (something that we should have done in the early days of the pandemic), but let's not run away with the ridiculous idea that it is Johnson's fault its closed. 

 

As stated in the Guardian piece; 

Stanislaw Olbrich, a 55-year-old driver stranded about 24 miles north of Dover at Ashford International Truckstop, after much of the world shut its borders to Britain, just wanted to get home for Christmas with his wife and three children in southern Poland.

 

Olbrich suspected politics may be at play. “I take freight to Britain and I can’t go back home because of (the) stupid virus. But I don’t know if it is the virus – I think it’s politics,” Olbrich said.

 

Also as stated, 'The freight industry estimated that 80% of the truck drivers operating in the UK were employed by EU-owned businesses.'  Not sure how many of those businesses are UK based, still possibly classed as EU businesses but that's Guardian journalism for you. 

 

That statistic makes for interesting reading.  Those EU owned freight businesses won't be wanting any future delays such as we have seen today, post-Brexit, will they?  As said many times, businesses will eventually dictate the outcome of Brexit. 

 

The UK / French border is a two-way thing, as are the delays in delivering goods to either side, as is the length of time each country decides to spend on possible, protracted physical border checks & the accompanying bureaucracy. 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Baron99

[hauxwell 242]

There is a lot of sympathy for Johnson here in the Newcastle and Gateshead area and I wouldn’t call them Conservative supporters.  Yes people have criticised him for delaying the first lockdown, but on a whole they say no other politician has had to deal with such a crisis since the Second World War.  

 

[El Cid 210]

22 minutes ago, hauxwell said:

There is a lot of sympathy for Johnson here in the Newcastle and Gateshead area and I wouldn’t call them Conservative supporters.  Yes people have criticised him for delaying the first lockdown, but on a whole they say no other politician has had to deal with such a crisis since the Second World War. 

I dont doubt some people still have some sympathy for him, but his approval rating has gone from 66% to 34%

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, Baron99 said:

And sadly, many of those stuck lorry drivers are Europeans, desperately trying to do their job & trying to get home before Christmas

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/21/lorry-drivers-fear-being-stuck-in-dover-for-christmas-as-borders-close

 

Personally I don't blame the French for shutting the border, (something that we should have done in the early days of the pandemic), but let's not run away with the ridiculous idea that it is Johnson's fault its closed. 

 

As stated in the Guardian piece; 

Stanislaw Olbrich, a 55-year-old driver stranded about 24 miles north of Dover at Ashford International Truckstop, after much of the world shut its borders to Britain, just wanted to get home for Christmas with his wife and three children in southern Poland.

 

Olbrich suspected politics may be at play. “I take freight to Britain and I can’t go back home because of (the) stupid virus. But I don’t know if it is the virus – I think it’s politics,” Olbrich said.

 

Also as stated, 'The freight industry estimated that 80% of the truck drivers operating in the UK were employed by EU-owned businesses.'  Not sure how many of those businesses are UK based, still possibly classed as EU businesses but that's Guardian journalism for you. 

 

That statistic makes for interesting reading.  Those EU owned freight businesses won't be wanting any future delays such as we have seen today, post-Brexit, will they?  As said many times, businesses will eventually dictate the outcome of Brexit. 

 

The UK / French border is a two-way thing, as are the delays in delivering goods to either side, as is the length of time each country decides to spend on possible, protracted physical border checks & the accompanying bureaucracy. 

 

I have every sympathy with the lorry drivers, there are a fair few in France trying to get back as well.

 

I'm not sure business will always try and find a way, DPD have suspended services to Ireland and northern Ireland. Prior to Brexit, everything just went the main Ireland hub and went on from there to NI as required. They were the best of the bunch I tried when it came to deliviering to Ireland  - that's on hold now. 

1 hour ago, hauxwell said:

There is a lot of sympathy for Johnson here in the Newcastle and Gateshead area and I wouldn’t call them Conservative supporters.  Yes people have criticised him for delaying the first lockdown, but on a whole they say no other politician has had to deal with such a crisis since the Second World War.  

 

He must love people like that.

[Litotes 63]

2 hours ago, hauxwell said:

There is a lot of sympathy for Johnson here in the Newcastle and Gateshead area and I wouldn’t call them Conservative supporters.  Yes people have criticised him for delaying the first lockdown, but on a whole they say no other politician has had to deal with such a crisis since the Second World War.  

 

Yes, but a muppet with a mask on could have done better than he has in terms of managing the situation.

 

Boris shut down to late in Covid-pandemic1, he opened up too soon after that, he shut down too late for #2 and then he didn't want to be the PM that cancelled Christmas so he allowed the superspreading to go on and then cancelled Christmas. Strike #4 - Most people are out after 3!

 

Mr Nice guy = Mr Death Guy - his mismanagement of the situation has resulted in the UK being nearly the top death/population stat out there.

 

Well done PM! - and then he lies about it - ! plus ca change as the French might say!?

1 hour ago, El Cid said:

I dont doubt some people still have some sympathy for him, but his approval rating has gone from 66% to 34%

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/boris-johnson-approval-rating

Levelling up? - Levelling out more like - levelling out the people for whom he is in some way responsible for their deaths.

 

Boris = The Grim Reaper, we'll he has helped kill the country!

Edited December 21, 2020 by Litotes

[Anna B 1,401]

5 hours ago, Baron99 said:

Hate burst the bubble.

 

Already posted something similar yesterday on the Labour Party thread so here's a bit of re-edit. 

 

I'd recommend reading the excellent book, 'Beyond The Red Wall: Why Labour Post, How The Conservatives Won And What Will Happen Next?' by Deborah Mattinson.

 

The author interviewed many previous, long-standing Labour across Labour's Northern heartlands as to why they voted Conservative at the last election, turning their backs on Labour & it wasn't just because of Corbyn.  

 

I saw Mattinson, once dubbed, 'Gordon Brown' s favourite pollster', being interviewed on Sky last week, regarding Brexit issues but she was asked about other areas of politics, including Starmer & how people in these Northern constituencies view how Labour / the Conservative, Starmer & Johnson are viewed at present in regards to the COVID pandemic? 

 

Ms Mattinson is still doing her polling work in those Northern heartlands & according to her, 'Labour is seen less as a Party of pints & pies, more of a Party of quinoa', under Starmer.

 

Johnson is seen as a capable leader with regards to the pandemic, especially as he also other such issues on his plate such as Brexit.  The vast majority of Northern voters in those once Labour constituencies, just see that it's unfortunate that he has the pandemic to additionally deal with.  Many apparently have a great deal of sympathy for his current plight.  So very few have actually changed their minds about his abilities.  Maybe the Northern voters are not as cynical as the London based media, always out for a 'Gotcha' headline? 

 

Starmer on the other hand, is seen as ineffective, even in his criticism of Jonhson's handling of the pandemic.  Starmer is also viewed in lacking any credible alternative responses as to how he would have responded to the pandemic, other than his  constant criticism, which is an apparent turn off, even for those once Labour voters.   People appear to be turned off by those who just constantly criticise.

 

As Ms Mattison also said in the interview, "The (Labour) Party, remains London-centric to Northerners, with many unable to relate to him, (Starmer), yet many are still willingly supporting a man who's middle name is 'de Pfeffel."

IMO the only thing that can account for it is the English working classes obsequious deference for the ruling upper class, which is almost bred into our DNA. -particularly amongst the older generation. They are exceptionally partial to the jovial, buoyant 'hale fellow well met' type that Johnson personifies. .He only has to bestow a smile upon them, for them to fall to the ground in a spasm of forelock tugging....

 

Not for them the complexities of political debate; a quick 3 word soundbite like 'Get Brexit done' or 'It was all Labour's fault,' and they are satisfied that they have sufficient information to inform their vote. If a Toff tells them that 'they have never had it so good' they ignore the evidence of their own experience, and believe him 100%. Because a Toff can't be wrong can he? He's richer, and therefore better than they are, so he must know what he's talking about.

 

They rather like being told what to do. It makes life simple. Why not take things at face value rather than go looking for complications?  And they don't like change, after all the ruling class have been in charge for ever so that's obviously the way it should be, shouldn't it?

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Anna B

[Delayed 461]

7 hours ago, Anna B said:

IMO the only thing that can account for it is the English working classes obsequious deference for the ruling upper class, which is almost bred into our DNA. -particularly amongst the older generation. They are exceptionally partial to the jovial, buoyant 'hale fellow well met' type that Johnson personifies. .He only has to bestow a smile upon them, for them to fall to the ground in a spasm of forelock tugging....

 

Not for them the complexities of political debate; a quick 3 word soundbite like 'Get Brexit done' or 'It was all Labour's fault,' and they are satisfied that they have sufficient information to inform their vote. If a Toff tells them that 'they have never had it so good' they ignore the evidence of their own experience, and believe him 100%. Because a Toff can't be wrong can he? He's richer, and therefore better than they are, so he must know what he's talking about.

 

They rather like being told what to do. It makes life simple. Why not take things at face value rather than go looking for complications?  And they don't like change, after all the ruling class have been in charge for ever so that's obviously the way it should be, shouldn't it?

 

 

So in summary, anyone who voted Tory is too stupid to read policies and only voted because of a smile. 

 

Whereas if you voted Labour and JC you are clearly intelligent and not plugged into the matrix.

 

It's amazing the lengths people go to to justify their position

 

 

 

[L00b 441]

12 hours ago, Baron99 said:

(...)

 

That statistic makes for interesting reading.  Those EU owned freight businesses won't be wanting any future delays such as we have seen today, post-Brexit, will they?  As said many times, businesses will eventually dictate the outcome of Brexit. 

 

The UK / French border is a two-way thing, as are the delays in delivering goods to either side, as is the length of time each country decides to spend on possible, protracted physical border checks & the accompanying bureaucracy. 

 

There have been many interviews of EU drivers in those queues on both sides of the Channel over the past few days, on French and German TV news. And interviews of haulage managing directors, I saw variously French, Dutch and Estonian ones.

 

All are saying the same thing: until there is clarity on import-export procedures between the EU27 and the UK, they just won't go to the UK any more. There's enough haulage demand intra-EU to not waste €s having trucks sitting still for days on end.

 

So I suppose that you are right in one respect, they don't want any future delays. But they're not coming to the UK's rescue, any more than German car manufacturers, Italian prosecco bottlers <etc>.

 

I would not be surprised in the least if such interviews/news don't get broadcast in the UK. I understand that the M20 webcam feeds were switched off last night or earlier this morning? 

[RJRB 682]

17 minutes ago, L00b said:

There have been many interviews of EU drivers in those queues on both sides of the Channel over the past few days, on French and German TV news. And interviews of haulage managing directors, I saw variously French, Dutch and Estonian ones.

 

All are saying the same thing: until there is clarity on import-export procedures between the EU27 and the UK, they just won't go to the UK any more. There's enough haulage demand intra-EU to not waste €s having trucks sitting still for days on end.

 

So I suppose that you are right in one respect, they don't want any future delays. But they're not coming to the UK's rescue, any more than German car manufacturers, Italian prosecco bottlers <etc>.

 

I would not be surprised in the least if such interviews/news don't get broadcast in the UK. I understand that the M20 webcam feeds were switched off last night or earlier this morning? 

Of course such interviews are represented in the U.K. and of course the emphasis in mainland Europe is to continue to serve the markets which best suit the logistics.

We are also aware that there are currently many non U.K. drivers and vehicles which are stuck over here and the first essential is to get these back over the channel.

Early days but other than the physical limitations imposed by the channel,it is no different to the travel limitations that we have seen imposed all over Europe this year.