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The Conservative Party - Part Two.

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As per warnings on other threads, please refer to politicians by their correct names, not by derogatory (or any other) nicknames.

 

Thank you.

Edited by nikki-red

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1 hour ago, West 77 said:

I've been consistent throughout. I've acknowledged there is a fine line between pressurising an individual to do their job better and bullying an individual to do their job better. Priti Patel hasn't been found guilty in a court of law of bullying anyone. However, the Home Office isn't a Kindergarten and I don't have a problem if a highly paid worker in that department is bullied in order to encourage them to do the job properly which the taxpayer is paying them to do. I don't believe Priti Patel is doing a bad as Home Secretary which is the main reason I don't want to see her lose her job. I don't have a problem with Boris giving Priti Patel the benefit of the doubt in order for her to remain as Home Secretary.

 

I find it rather amusing you criticise me for calling another user out for changing Priti Patel's surname when a forum moderator has made it perfectly clear on the Labour Party thread that changing the surname of Keir Starmer is unacceptable. Surely if it's unacceptable to change the surname of a Labour politician then it's unacceptable to change the surname of a Tory politician? Or do you believe there should be different posting rules on the Conservative Party thread to the Labour Party thread?

You were consistent in your disparagement of senior civil servants who didn't like being bullied. Such as:

On 20/11/2020 at 10:28, West 77 said:

It's a sad reflection of the snowflake society we live him that grown men in important highly paid jobs are complaining a little woman has bullied them. The position of Home Secretary is a role for someone that acts tough. We need more  strong leaders in the cabinet like Pritti Patel and less wimps working in Government departments. 

So you disagree with the Prime Minister when he wrote that bullying is wrong in his foreword to the Ministerial Code? You must do  if you just wrote  "I don't have a problem if a highly paid worker in that department is bullied in order to encourage them to do the job properly which the taxpayer is paying them to do".

I think bullying and harassment is unacceptable in the workplace, the Prime Minister must agree with me otherwise he would change the laws and regulations relating to such behaviour in the workplace. Performance management, encouragement and professional development have all being proven to be much more effective in getting the best out of people.

 

I've no problem in calling Kier Starmer Kier Starmer because that's his name. Up until now his behaviour has commanded my respect. I've no problem calling Priti Patel Priti Patel either - not because I respect her behaviour, I don't.

What I was alluding to when you called out another poster who didn't use Priti Patel's name correctly was the complete disconnect between the respect that you demand for the Home Secretary, and your lack of empathy for victims of Patel's bullying. Look at how you refer to them in your post above: "wimps", "can't stand up to a little woman".  Priti Patel isn't a 'little woman'.  Would she thank you for referring to her in that way? Her name isn't 'little woman', it's Priti Patel. Don't be so patronising.

 

 

Edited by Mister M

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There was an interesting show on LBC about this today, it seems all is not quite as it seems.

The previous payout of £25k for bullying was not against Patel but a senior civil servant.

The current issue is from the permanent secretary who incorrectly briefed figures to Amber Rudd as he was going on holiday which led to her having to resign.
The argument that led to the current issue was when the permanent secretary tried to stop Patel from making public a report on child grooming by  gangs and she thought it important to get it out in the open so the victims felt they were being listened too.

He also only brought the complaints much later, I think when he had left the job.

Maajid Nawaz (not a Tory supporter by his own admission) took the view that this guy was pretty incompetent and it was more about internal politics that he brought the complaint rather than the actual bullying.

There was also the insinuation (without detailing firm evidence) that the guy was a misogynist and didn’t like having female bosses.

 

My personal take is that the position of permanent secretary is a very senior role, I would be very surprised if anyone at that level really couldn’t deal with shouting and being sworn at in an argument. 
You don’t get to that level in government or for that matter business without being able to give it out and take it back. There are far worse things somebody at that level has to deal with so I don’t believe this would be a major issue for them.

That doesn’t make it an example that should be followed BTW, but in my view not a sackable offence.

 

If she was like it with lower ranked staff that would be a different matter IMV.

 

 

 

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Bullying, harrassment and coercive practices seem very familiar in the lower orders. 

The general attitude is 'if you don't like it, work somewhere else. There's plenty more where you came from....'

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6 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Bullying, harrassment and coercive practices seem very familiar in the lower orders. 

The general attitude is 'if you don't like it, work somewhere else. There's plenty more where you came from....'

So tough luck on the suicidal civil servant because she earns a bit?

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6 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

So tough luck on the suicidal civil servant because she earns a bit?

Eh? I don't like PP much, but I haven't really been following this. If she's good at her job she should probably stay in it. Maybe a word in her ear is enough. Is she good at her job?

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4 hours ago, West 77 said:

I've been consistent throughout. I've acknowledged there is a fine line between pressurising an individual to do their job better and bullying an individual to do their job better. Priti Patel hasn't been found guilty in a court of law of bullying anyone. However, the Home Office isn't a Kindergarten and I don't have a problem if a highly paid worker in that department is bullied in order to encourage them to do the job properly which the taxpayer is paying them to do. I don't believe Priti Patel is doing a bad as Home Secretary which is the main reason I don't want to see her lose her job. I don't have a problem with Boris giving Priti Patel the benefit of the doubt in order for her to remain as Home Secretary.

 

I find it rather amusing you criticise me for calling another user out for changing Priti Patel's surname when a forum moderator has made it perfectly clear on the Labour Party thread that changing the surname of Keir Starmer is unacceptable. Surely if it's unacceptable to change the surname of a Labour politician then it's unacceptable to change the surname of a Tory politician? Or do you believe there should be different posting rules on the Conservative Party thread to the Labour Party thread?

So from the above - you condone bullying.

That's fine - at least we know who you stand beside... and any claims that anyone else is bullying will be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

It also highlights your personal moral standpoint

29 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Eh? I don't like PP much, but I haven't really been following this. If she's good at her job she should probably stay in it. Maybe a word in her ear is enough. Is she good at her job?

Absolutely - she doesn't appear good at her job - pretty pathetic really!

On 20/11/2020 at 16:43, West 77 said:

You can't say Boris isn't loyal.

Pity he wasn't loyal to his wife.

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2 hours ago, Westie1889 said:

There was an interesting show on LBC about this today, it seems all is not quite as it seems.

The previous payout of £25k for bullying was not against Patel but a senior civil servant.

The current issue is from the permanent secretary who incorrectly briefed figures to Amber Rudd as he was going on holiday which led to her having to resign.
The argument that led to the current issue was when the permanent secretary tried to stop Patel from making public a report on child grooming by  gangs and she thought it important to get it out in the open so the victims felt they were being listened too.

He also only brought the complaints much later, I think when he had left the job.

Maajid Nawaz (not a Tory supporter by his own admission) took the view that this guy was pretty incompetent and it was more about internal politics that he brought the complaint rather than the actual bullying.

There was also the insinuation (without detailing firm evidence) that the guy was a misogynist and didn’t like having female bosses.

 

My personal take is that the position of permanent secretary is a very senior role, I would be very surprised if anyone at that level really couldn’t deal with shouting and being sworn at in an argument. 
You don’t get to that level in government or for that matter business without being able to give it out and take it back. There are far worse things somebody at that level has to deal with so I don’t believe this would be a major issue for them.

That doesn’t make it an example that should be followed BTW, but in my view not a sackable offence.

 

If she was like it with lower ranked staff that would be a different matter IMV.

 

 

 

Is this the case you're referring to Westie1889?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-bully-staff-suicide-conservative-boris-johnson-a9370731.html

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Mister M said:

 

 

 

I agree with Priti.

 
 

 

The ongoing stupidity of Home Secretary Priti Patel.

 

Edited by nikki-red

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8 hours ago, Mister M said:

Yep that sounds like it.  Maajid said that it was a civil servant who was in the dock for the bullying but the story was leaked to the press in a way that smeared Patel.

I think the way the article is worded doesn’t make it clear, it focuses on the Patel bit without delving more into the behaviour of the civil servant delivering the message.

Also the fact the civil servant said ‘she doesn’t like your face’ doesn’t mean that’s what Patel said.

It could have come directly that way from Patel or it could just be that the person wasn’t a good fit for the team and the message was more ‘that her face didn’t fit’ - a very different thing to saying she didn’t like her face.

I don’t have a view either way really, but it doesn’t seem possible to prove conclusively either way when you look at the different information available on this.

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13 hours ago, Anna B said:

Eh? I don't like PP much, but I haven't really been following this. If she's good at her job she should probably stay in it. Maybe a word in her ear is enough. Is she good at her job?

If the Sunday Times is to be believed Priti Patel will be going from the Home Office anyway: a) because of her unacceptable behaviour; and b) because of her lack of competence in the role.

I think the two are related. If people are capable of performing well in a difficult job, they have no need to scream, swear and bully.

As the old saying goes 'a bad workman always blames his tools.'

An excellent outcome altogether. 

Edited by Mister M

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 What ever occupation your in,  It doesn't matter how good at your job you are,  if proven you have commited a sackable offence of any kind then you should be sacked, no excuses,  the people your offending might also be good at their jobs too,  so why should they have to suffer.

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