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Coronavirus - Part Two.

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10 minutes ago, apelike said:

IIRC The S.Korean one is mandatory now, uses a QR code that uniquely identifies individuals and is basically state surveillance by any other name. That last bit is why the T&T system rollout in Europe and elsewhere is really worthless as its take up has been limited and in most cases less than half the population has downloaded it to their phone. S.Korea also like many Asian countries down that way have also been very prepared in their preparations for new pandemic outbreaks because of past history in dealing with them. We had a choice but have gone down the same route as we have with masks/face coverings and have failed to make them mandatory for a reason.

Is it effective or not?

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14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

You are really not getting it are you.

No, I get it, just not with the rose tinted glasses you appear to wear.

14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Blame goes far beyond what is happening in number 10. On the PPE issue where are all the advisers confirming the correct equipment, the civil servants making sure they order what the hospital directors say they need. Surely you don't expect limited taxpayer money to be spent storing vast amounts of PPE for years on end "just in case".   There has to be a reasonable and proportionate response with decisions and responsibilities spreading across many parties including civil servants, manufacturers, distributors and even international suppliers.  It goes far beyond a single point.   

And when the government (who have been advised on what PPE to buy), do not perform due diligence and order (and pay for) the wrong stuff that then gets wasted - that is a government failing, not the NHS.

14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

The track and trace app which allegedly was a failure would involve IT consultants, developers, layers of civil service, external contractors, not simply government control. 

The original app for your information was even developed by the NHS own technical teams in house something which you were purporting was a good thing to be encouraged in your last post.

I don't see where I purported an in house development to be best - get the people who are best at a subject to do it... But make a decision rather than mumbling about making promises that the technologists cannot deliver on because it is an unrealistic promise.

14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

As for your completely irrelevant comparisons with A&E on a Friday night I really don't know what that have to do with anything. Putting aside the obvious arguments on self responsibility for the patients - many of whom will be there simply because of their own stupidity be it alcohol fuelled, drugs self-harm or reckless acts... who on earth do you  think is actually controlling and running those hospital operations.

 

Have you ever stopped to think for one second about who is in responsible for those decisions within the running of an A&E department,  what exactly are the overpaid  hospital management doing with the budget, how are they allocating staff, how are they controlling their operational procedures, how they are monitoring admissions, how they triage and reject timewasters.    Not exactly the PMs or Cabinets task is it.  

Exactly, but they meddle in it - how many times during this pandemic have we seen Mr BoShambles making a claim or promising an action without those being responsible for delivering it not having been consulted or informed - many many times - and we will see it many many times again.

 

Either the government gives responsibility to those who are the best placed to deliver, or it takes responsibility itself - at the moment it is doing neither. It is just killing mroe people through dithering.

14 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

 

Just like I said before there is a bigger picture here.  

 

You seem to be letting your obviously dislike of the colour of the party in charge to be narrowing your vision   When it comes to blame and responsibility the net is cast far wider. This is institutional failure not single issue. 

 

It's all too easy with the benefit of hindsight especially when you are not the one who has to make those tough decisions in ever changing circumstances.

And the institution at failure here is the government, not the NHS.

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1 hour ago, tinfoilhat said:

Is it effective or not?

Yes it is but you don't seem to understand that it can only be effective if it is also compulsory and just one free country in the world has done that. Which other country has a successful take up rate where it is not compulsory?

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51 minutes ago, apelike said:

Yes it is.

Thank you.

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15 hours ago, andyofborg said:

in apes and ecco's world the government can do no wrong and boris and dominic are perfect and almost god like in their brilliance.

 

all public sector bodies from the NHS downwards, work within a framework of polices and funding provided by the government. even though they choose to ignore it the various ministers and secretaries of state are supposed to be responsible for these bodies and their actions and decisions. 

 

but like the top levels of private sector management, ministers take no responsibility for their actions and move on to pastures new without ever having to take responsibility for their failures. the only difference is that private sector types tend to go with millions in their pockets and ministers get new ministries to destroy. 

 

Just wait until the "grouse shooting and similar field sports" exemption to the Rule of 6 (specifically and singularly scheduled for a special Cabinet meeting chaired by Gove last Saturday afternoon (the meeting was called off-but the exception made the published rules)) start making more inroads in the MSM ;):D

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40 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Thank you.

No worries. Perhaps you could return the courtesy and now answer my question posed to you in post #963. :)

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12 minutes ago, apelike said:

No worries. Perhaps you could return the courtesy and now answer my question posed to you in post #963. :)

That's a different question though - you asked for an example and got one. It can be done, not always with just apps - but Iceland had a 38% uptake.

 

Germany hasn't had the same uptake for an app but where our numbers have shot up, Germany's went up and are levelling off again. They've not locked everything down, so what have they done?

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1 hour ago, tinfoilhat said:

That's a different question though - you asked for an example and got one. It can be done, not always with just apps - but Iceland had a 38% uptake.

Thanks but 38% is still well under the level of any successful useful app though. As pointed out by scientists and biologists it has to have a take up of over 70% and preferable over 80% for it to be anywhere near successful and S.Korea have met those figures.

 

To be honest I think people are concentrating too much on its spread and how many have or may have it that they forget that the mortality rates are still very low given it is a major pandemic and for most catching it is not much of a problem. 

 

Edited by apelike

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When discussing the smartphone "app" and percentage take-up of it, I think it is worth repeating that targets of anything like 80% uptake of an a"app" are simply unachievable in a country like ours when only around 70-80% of the population have smartphones in the first place!

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More "world beating" testing from HMG.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/14/people-in-englands-10-worst-hit-covid-hotspots-unable-to-get-tests

 

"Ministers have previously promised to prioritise testing in Covid hotspots but people trying to book swab tests in the worst-hit areas were told on Monday that it was not possible, LBC reported. The issue covered Bolton, Salford, Bradford, Blackburn, Oldham, Preston, Pendle, Rochdale, Tameside and Manchester."

 

Obviously not the fault of Ministers though 😎

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13 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

What a shambles.

Not quite "world-beating" is it?

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