Coronavirus - Part Two.

[apelike 10]

16 minutes ago, Longcol said:

David Davis reckons HMG are playing a little fast and loose with the testing capacity figures.

 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/david-davis-boris-matt-hancock-mass-testing-claims-criticism-a4544221.html

 

Johnsons quote "We are now processing 1.2 million tests a week " and  the claim by Grant Shapps that "we can perform 300,000 tests a day"  mean we should have spare capacity of 900,000 tests per week.

 

 

And???

 

I agree with ECCOnoob, people really should stop the blame game as all it is good for is media reporting, selling news and gets us nowhere! Or we could also possibly have another election, waste money and resources on that when we need as much money as we can get, and still end up with Mr BoShambles at the helm.

[Longcol 600]

1 minute ago, apelike said:

And???

 

I agree with ECCOnoob, people really should stop the blame game as all it is good for is media reporting, selling news and gets us nowhere! Or we could also possibly have another election, waste money and resources on that when we need as much money as we can get, and still end up with Mr BoShambles at the helm.

So you are happy with BoShambles and HMG telling porkies and endangering lives?

[ECCOnoob 1,032]

13 minutes ago, Longcol said:

So you are happy with BoShambles and HMG telling porkies and endangering lives?

It first needs to be proven that they are.

 

It's all just a war of words fuelled by the media with lots of finger pointing and opinion to try and stir the pot and raise ones profile.

 

It may well be that they do have capacity to perform 300,000 tests a day but "perform"  might not be the same as processing and sending out the results.

 

As with all these things, unless someone has the full and complete facts in full context from both sides and a totally objective approach - nobody's gonna know and the media certainly won't report it in sufficient lengthy detail because that doesn't sell papers.   

 

In the meantime all it is doing is fuelling hot air, ill-informed debate and speculation losing focus on the actual important issues. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[Longcol 600]

7 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

It first needs to be proven that they are.

 

It's all just a war of words fuelled by the media with lots of finger pointing and opinion to try and stir the pot and raise ones profile.

 

It may well be that they do have capacity to perform 300,000 tests a day but "perform"  might not be the same as processing and sending out the results.

 

As with all these things, unless someone has the full and complete facts in full context from both sides and a totally objective approach - nobody's gonna know and the media certainly won't report it in sufficient lengthy detail because that doesn't sell papers.   

 

In the meantime all it is doing is fuelling hot air, ill-informed debate and speculation losing focus on the actual important issues. 

Perhaps HMG should get their act togetherand tell us the truth about testing - like what do they mean by perform and processing. All we get, yet again, is "jam tomorrow" like Hancock saying we'll be doing (processing or performing?) 500,000 tests per day by the end of October - or BoShambles' Operation Moonshot.

 

Bit of honesty and taking responsibility  by HMG would go a long way. But it's always somebody else's fault isn't it?

 

 

[Litotes 63]

41 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

Properly resourced? That's a laugh. Just how much does that bottomless pit need?

 

The service has had vast amounts of money thrown at it since the outbreak of this virus including emergency hospitals being built which are barely used.  

 

Our taxpayer money has been spent on extra nursing resources, equipment, testing systems, research work, and all the associated red tape and pen pushers to administrate it all.

 

Let's not forget all of this money being spaffed on a disease which is still, even after many months, only causing fatality to minimal numbers of the overall population.

 

Whilst there is plenty of government blaming going off who is asking the questions about what  exactly those vastly overpaid multiple layers of NHS management were doing to take their own responsibilities.  Where is their planning and contingency.  Where is their own responsibility for ensuring and sourcing the correct supplies  and PPE which was allegedly so desperately needed.  Where are the Care Home managers and executives taking responsibilities for their failures to their patients. Where are the risk assessments and the proper facilities being put in place...... you know those sorts of duties that they get their huge salaries for.  Often far more than the salary the MPs get.

 

Sorry not falling into this NHS is wonderful, blameless and sacred.   Nor will I ever believe its is even remotely underresourced.  

 

It isn't and never has been.  Actually, it's a flabby, mismanaged, wasteful, overprotected, incompetent, falsely worshiped and expensive shambles 

 

It needs a complete overhaul, streamlining and clear out just as much as the government if not entire civil service does.  

 

Some people really need to realise that blame needs to go far beyond just what's happening at number 10.   Just topping the figurehead doesn't solve the root cause of institutional failures.

 

Properly resourced means the right money being spent in the right places.

 

Getting millions spent on PPE that wasn't fit for purpose, or getting outsourced testing or getting a 'world beating' test and trace app that doesn't work but allows Mr Boshambles to have yet another sounds bite is not being properly resourced.

 

If you don't think it is under-resourced, I am sorry, I don't think you have every seen the front line of the NHS on a Friday night in an A&E ward. It is not properly resourced...

Perhaps you would like to volunteer?

 

 

2 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Perhaps HMG should get their act togetherand tell us the truth about testing - like what do they mean by perform and processing. All we get, yet again, is "jam tomorrow" like Hancock saying we'll be doing (processing or performing?) 500,000 tests per day by the end of October - or BoShambles' Operation Moonshot.

 

Bit of honesty and taking responsibility  by HMG would go a long way. But it's always somebody else's fault isn't it?

 

 

If you test no-one, then the figures will go down... and then when you start testing again, perhaps because of public demand for testing, the figures will go up again...

Anyone see a pattern here?

[ECCOnoob 1,032]

47 minutes ago, Litotes said:

Properly resourced means the right money being spent in the right places.

 

Getting millions spent on PPE that wasn't fit for purpose, or getting outsourced testing or getting a 'world beating' test and trace app that doesn't work but allows Mr Boshambles to have yet another sounds bite is not being properly resourced.

 

If you don't think it is under-resourced, I am sorry, I don't think you have every seen the front line of the NHS on a Friday night in an A&E ward. It is not properly resourced...

Perhaps you would like to volunteer?

 

You are really not getting it are you.

 

Blame goes far beyond what is happening in number 10. On the PPE issue where are all the advisers confirming the correct equipment, the civil servants making sure they order what the hospital directors say they need. Surely you don't expect limited taxpayer money to be spent storing vast amounts of PPE for years on end "just in case".   There has to be a reasonable and proportionate response with decisions and responsibilities spreading across many parties including civil servants, manufacturers, distributors and even international suppliers.  It goes far beyond a single point.   

 

The track and trace app which allegedly was a failure would involve IT consultants, developers, layers of civil service, external contractors, not simply government control. 

The original app for your information was even developed by the NHS own technical teams in house something which you were purporting was a good thing to be encouraged in your last post.

 

As for your completely irrelevant comparisons with A&E on a Friday night I really don't know what that have to do with anything. Putting aside the obvious arguments on self responsibility for the patients - many of whom will be there simply because of their own stupidity be it alcohol fuelled, drugs self-harm or reckless acts... who on earth do you  think is actually controlling and running those hospital operations.

 

Have you ever stopped to think for one second about who is in responsible for those decisions within the running of an A&E department,  what exactly are the overpaid  hospital management doing with the budget, how are they allocating staff, how are they controlling their operational procedures, how they are monitoring admissions, how they triage and reject timewasters.    Not exactly the PMs or Cabinets task is it.  

 

Just like I said before there is a bigger picture here.  

 

You seem to be letting your obviously dislike of the colour of the party in charge to be narrowing your vision   When it comes to blame and responsibility the net is cast far wider. This is institutional failure not single issue. 

 

It's all too easy with the benefit of hindsight especially when you are not the one who has to make those tough decisions in ever changing circumstances.

Edited September 13, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[apelike 10]

44 minutes ago, Litotes said:

If you don't think it is under-resourced, I am sorry, I don't think you have every seen the front line of the NHS on a Friday night in an A&E ward. It is not properly resourced...

I don't think you though that one through properly. Just why was A&E inundated with casualties on a Friday night? What was the cause? Should the general public pour more resources into the Friday night alcohol related casualties? This and many more questions in tonight's edition of Soap....... 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/every-patient-was-a-drunk-injury-despair-over-bank-holiday-a-e-admissions-11986373

 

The problem with the NHS is in part due to its size as the bigger it gets the more money and resources it needs, just like the good old EU. As it gets bigger it needs more well paid managers so needs more money to survive and carry on.

 

ECCO in part beat me to it..... 

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by apelike

[Longcol 600]

5 minutes ago, apelike said:

I don't think you though that one through properly. Just why was A&E inundated with casualties on a Friday night? What was the cause? Should the general public pour more resources into the Friday night alcohol related casualties? This and many more questions in tonight's edition of Soap....... 

 

https://news.sky.com/story/every-patient-was-a-drunk-injury-despair-over-bank-holiday-a-e-admissions-11986373

 

The problem with the NHS is in part due to its size as the bigger it gets the more money and resources it needs, just like the good old EU. As it gets bigger it needs more well paid managers so needs more money to survive and carry on.

 

ECCO in part beat me to it..... 

 

And all this time HMG are totally helpless to do anything about it...........................................or is it hopeless😎

[ECCOnoob 1,032]

1 hour ago, Longcol said:

Perhaps HMG should get their act togetherand tell us the truth about testing - like what do they mean by perform and processing. All we get, yet again, is "jam tomorrow" like Hancock saying we'll be doing (processing or performing?) 500,000 tests per day by the end of October - or BoShambles' Operation Moonshot.

 

Bit of honesty and taking responsibility  by HMG would go a long way. But it's always somebody else's fault isn't it?

 

 

What was the question being asked? If it was how many tests can we do a day then they have answered it. If the question was how many results are being processed in an average week then they have answered that.

 

What exactly are we wanting to know? I would have thought most sensible people would be aware that there is a difference between taking a swab and actually having to them send that off to be processed and analysed with the second part taking longer than the first. 

 

It is also not as if the data isn't available.  I've said multiple times and on this forum that the government publishes reams of statistics reports, committee minutes, and transcripts of debates in the house every day.  It's all there for any of us to access whatever we want.  The big problem is most of us can't be bothered and we simply sit there like dummies waiting to see what the papers tell what they think we want to know,  of course adding on their own bias manipulation and selective editing of the statistics to suit whichever agenda they are trying to push.

 

Here is just a selection of things all here all available for those who want to be informed:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/nhs-test-and-trace-statistics-england-weekly-reports

https://www.gov.uk/coronavirus

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/react-1-study-of-coronavirus-transmission-august-2020-results/react-1-real-time-assessment-of-community-transmission-of-coronavirus-covid-19-in-august-2020

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-infection-rises-letter-to-care-providers-from-director-of-adult-social-care-delivery/covid-19-infection-rises-letter-to-care-providers-from-director-of-adult-social-care-delivery

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/distributing-vaccines-and-treatments-for-covid-19-and-flu/consultation-document-changes-to-human-medicine-regulations-to-support-the-rollout-of-covid-19-vaccines

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912858/covid-and-flu-draft-statutory-instrument.pdf

Edited September 13, 2020 by ECCOnoob

[Longcol 600]

4 minutes ago, ECCOnoob said:

What was the question being asked? If it was how many tests can we do a day then they have answered it. If the question was how many results are being processed in an average week then they have answered that.

 

What exactly are we wanting to know? I would have thought most sensible people would be aware that there is a difference between taking a swab and actually having to them send that off to be processed and analysed with the second part taking longer than the first. 

 

It is also not as if the data isn't available.  I've said multiple times and on this forum that the government publishes reams of statistics reports, committee minutes, and transcripts of debates in the house every day.  It's all there for any of us to access whatever we want.  The big problem is most of us can't be bothered and we simply sit there like dummies waiting to see what the papers tell what they think we want to know,  of course adding on their own bias manipulation and selective editing of the statistics to suit whichever agenda they are trying to push.

 

Gov.uk / government / collections / NHS

Why are HMG asking people not to get tested when they are showing capacity for testing is well in excess of numbers being tested.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Longcol

[andyofborg 11]

12 minutes ago, Longcol said:

And all this time HMG are totally helpless to do anything about it...........................................or is it hopeless😎

in apes and ecco's world the government can do no wrong and boris and dominic are perfect and almost god like in their brilliance.

 

all public sector bodies from the NHS downwards, work within a framework of polices and funding provided by the government. even though they choose to ignore it the various ministers and secretaries of state are supposed to be responsible for these bodies and their actions and decisions. 

 

but like the top levels of private sector management, ministers take no responsibility for their actions and move on to pastures new without ever having to take responsibility for their failures. the only difference is that private sector types tend to go with millions in their pockets and ministers get new ministries to destroy. 

 

[apelike 10]

17 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

..... all public sector bodies from the NHS downwards, work within a framework of polices and funding provided by the government. even though they choose to ignore it the various ministers and secretaries of state are supposed to be responsible for these bodies and their actions and decisions. 

I think you will find that it is the various NHS Trusts and their managers that are responsible for its day to day running and not any Ministers or Secretaries of State from the Department of Health. The overall control of the NHS is in fact held by NHS England which was formed in 2012 by the Health and Social Care Act to make it a separate entity free from Government control or political interference. NHS England answer directly to parliament for that reason.

 

You are correct though that those at the top and in charge of running it are mainly from private sector management consultancies, and that is now the problem.