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Coronavirus - Part Two.

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59 minutes ago, L00b said:

Recalling that healthcare generally, and pandemic management in particular, had never been competencies of the EU until last year, helps to appreciate the situation in its proper context, which is that EU member states eventually agreed to coordinate and handle procurement issues collectively through the EU institutions, which by definition takes much more organising and a longer time, whereas the UK went it alone, with the additional good fortune  of having Astra Zeneca at home with its own production facility.

 

So of course the UK was always going to be more adaptive and nimble, especially after Sunak equipped it with a newfound jungle of money trees. The NHS has made the rest of the difference -and still does-  but that has certainly not been through Johnson and Hancock's leadership and managerial skills.

 

Brexit supporters are currently making hay of that situation, in their desperate search for positives to make Brexit look worthwhile, even though any EU member state could have gone it alone and started vaccinations earlier. But in 6 months' time, once the most at-risk populations have been vaccinated and virus mortality declines dramatically (...in first world countries), no-one will remember who vaccinated most or quicker: what people will still remember then, are the number of deaths in their country and how the pandemic was handled by their government.

 

EDIT: this EU blocking is not needed, either. There are compulsory licensing provisions in the patent legislation of every developed and semi-developed country in the world, under which a government, faced with a healthcare emergency, can force Astra Zeneca, Pfizer, etc. to grant a time-limited license (not free) to one or more national producers under the national patent for the vaccine, for boosting domestic production. Why more noise isn't made about this option, I don't know. But it's hardly secret. It's just never been used anywhere before (AFAIK). Now would very much be the time.

I agree it takes time to organise and sort the number of doses and funding between the EU 27, but I thinks it’s fair to point out that it took them far too long even taking that into account.

Some of the Northern European health ministers had got together already to plan procurement for their respective nations, as it is possible to do this as you point out.

However, they were then over-ruled after pressure was applied by the EU commission and according to one German newspaper were forced to write what amounted to an apology to the Commission for attempting to go it alone.


I get people have an agenda based on their Brexit views and it must be hard not to defend whichever viewpoint you adhere too, especially after years of wrangling and some serious affects on people’s lives.

 

But this decision will cost lives, either in the EU or here so that should be the primary focus in this debate.

 

I would like a closer relationship with the EU than we have now, and I admire many of the things it has achieved but on this occasion the criticism that it is too bureaucratic and over-bearingly political has been laid bare and will result in the loss of life sadly.

 

Hopefully the politicians will reflect on why they made these mistakes and focus on doing the best they can for their citizens rather than playing costly political games.

 

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I don't know about the EU being late to secure their vaccines, the African Union has just secured a further 400 million vaccines for African countries in the last day, including AstraZeneca vaccines. 

 

I don't know about the EU being late, its beginning to look like they were last? 

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1 hour ago, Westie1889 said:

I agree it takes time to organise and sort the number of doses and funding between the EU 27, but I thinks it’s fair to point out that it took them far too long even taking that into account.

Some of the Northern European health ministers had got together already to plan procurement for their respective nations, as it is possible to do this as you point out.

However, they were then over-ruled after pressure was applied by the EU commission and according to one German newspaper were forced to write what amounted to an apology to the Commission for attempting to go it alone.


I get people have an agenda based on their Brexit views and it must be hard not to defend whichever viewpoint you adhere too, especially after years of wrangling and some serious affects on people’s lives.

 

But this decision will cost lives, either in the EU or here so that should be the primary focus in this debate.

 

I would like a closer relationship with the EU than we have now, and I admire many of the things it has achieved but on this occasion the criticism that it is too bureaucratic and over-bearingly political has been laid bare and will result in the loss of life sadly.

 

Hopefully the politicians will reflect on why they made these mistakes and focus on doing the best they can for their citizens rather than playing costly political games.

 

I'm reserving final judgement on this particular issue, until the contracts have been published and facts have been delineated from allegations.

 

We're hearing about inequitable conduct by Astra Zeneca favouring the UK in breach of their contractual obligations with the EU, here - something which I very much doubt that you are hearing over there. Now I'm saying that in passing without any partiality* here, simply to illustrate the point that there is a lot of media noise over a lot of allegations, both in the UK and outside of it,  with little verified substance and an a sea of misinformation.

 

*this is the Covid thread, and my position remains that this vaccines stuff has *sod all* to do with the UK-EU relationship, considering 'Brexit' really only started at all 29 days ago, when all these issues about PPE, vaccines funding and supply contracts, etc. were all in the works and done months and months ago in 2020, whilst the UK was to all intents and purposes still in the EU, under the WA.

 

It's yet another issue that is turning adversarial and antagonistic between the UK and the EU27, when really there was no need whatsoever.  With English politicians pouring it as kerosene on their blame-the-EU-for-everything fire, it's not going to get better anytime soon either. For shame. 

Edited by L00b

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41 minutes ago, L00b said:

I'm reserving final judgement on this particular issue, until the contracts have been published and facts have been delineated from allegations.

 

We're hearing about inequitable conduct by Astra Zeneca favouring the UK in breach of their contractual obligations with the EU, here - something which I very much doubt that you are hearing over there. Now I'm saying that in passing without any partiality* here, simply to illustrate the point that there is a lot of media noise over a lot of allegations, both in the UK and outside of it,  with little verified substance and an a sea of misinformation.

 

*this is the Covid thread, and my position remains that this vaccines stuff has *sod all* to do with the UK-EU relationship, considering 'Brexit' really only started at all 29 days ago, when all these issues about PPE, vaccines funding and supply contracts, etc. were all in the works and done months and months ago in 2020, whilst the UK was to all intents and purposes still in the EU, under the WA.

 

It's yet another issue that is turning adversarial and antagonistic between the UK and the EU27, when really there was no need whatsoever.  With English politicians pouring it as kerosene on their blame-the-EU-for-everything fire, it's not going to get better anytime soon either. For shame. 

The following is being reported by The Telegraph regarding the EU's contract with AstraZeneca;

 

"The contract reveals that the two sides agreed manufacturing sites "shall include the United Kingdom" - adding weight to the EU's position. It also stipulates that other deals cannot supercede any agreement with the EU."

 

So reading the above, I wonder how that works?  28 way share? 

 

 

Edited by Baron99

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It will be interesting to get your view on the contract when it’s available as I believe that’s your field of speciality? I also read about the significance of which factories were deemed secondary supply will also have a bearing.

 

I agree it shouldn’t be a Brexit issue, it’s a contractual issue between the EU and AZ.

I can’t help feel though that part of the EU’s delay was due to ill feeling over Brexit, and I base this view on some of the noises that were being made about the Oxford vaccine from EU politicians last year.

I think they wanted an EU solution and not a British one so avoided placing orders for a period of time.

 

I’ve read a few of the European newspapers today and most seemed anti EU for the vaccine issues with the exception of some of the Dutch press but that’s only a snapshot.

 

TBF the press and politicians here have been pretty quiet about it apart from the usual suspects, there’s been very little nationalistic tub thumping which has surprised me, but maybe it’s yet to come.

 

I do think it will harden a lot of people’s attitudes towards the EU if it affects the UK’s program though, but let’s hope it doesn’t and everyone gets what they need both here and in the EU because ultimately it will affect us all.

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On a lighter note, it's been announced that there won't be a 2021 series of Britains got Talent due to the pandemic.

 

Every cloud and all that.... 😂

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23 minutes ago, whiteowl said:

On a lighter note, it's been announced that there won't be a 2021 series of Britains got Talent due to the pandemic.

 

Every cloud and all that.... 😂

:banana:  :banana:  :banana:

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31 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

The following is being reported by The Telegraph regarding the EU's contract with AstraZeneca;

 

"The contract reveals that the two sides agreed manufacturing sites "shall include the United Kingdom" - adding weight to the EU's position. It also stipulates that other deals cannot supercede any agreement with the EU."

 

So reading the above, I wonder how that works?  28 way share? 

 

 

 

supercede

"to replace something, especially something older or more old-fashioned"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/supersede

 

If the UK agreement pre-dates the EU one, then it is not superceding it. 

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1 hour ago, L00b said:

I'm reserving final judgement on this particular issue, until the contracts have been published and facts have been delineated from allegations.

 

We're hearing about inequitable conduct by Astra Zeneca favouring the UK in breach of their contractual obligations with the EU, here - something which I very much doubt that you are hearing over there. Now I'm saying that in passing without any partiality* here, simply to illustrate the point that there is a lot of media noise over a lot of allegations, both in the UK and outside of it,  with little verified substance and an a sea of misinformation.

 

*this is the Covid thread, and my position remains that this vaccines stuff has *sod all* to do with the UK-EU relationship, considering 'Brexit' really only started at all 29 days ago, when all these issues about PPE, vaccines funding and supply contracts, etc. were all in the works and done months and months ago in 2020, whilst the UK was to all intents and purposes still in the EU, under the WA.

 

It's yet another issue that is turning adversarial and antagonistic between the UK and the EU27, when really there was no need whatsoever.  With English politicians pouring it as kerosene on their blame-the-EU-for-everything fire, it's not going to get better anytime soon either. For shame. 

Same old rhetoric.

 

EU good

UK bad

 

 

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As I understand it, we are still in lockdown, with penalties for people meeting in large groups, and no end-of-lockdown date has been given.

 

Can anybody explain to me how then we can have premises not only arranging for concerts and the like in the future (e.g. on SF), but advertising them and taking monies on the basis they will take place?  Travel companies are also taking bookings, and I caught the back end of  a TV advert for some last week, for summer holidays abroad!  How are they allowed to do this in the middle of a pandemic, with restrictions still in place on travel?

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4 hours ago, apelike said:

I think its already been explained that no corners were cut

How many people do you think a vaccine should be tested on, to show its safe and it works. How many people over 70 should the vaccine be tested on, before its releade?

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46 minutes ago, Delayed said:

Same old rhetoric.

 

EU good

UK bad

 

How so?

 

 

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