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Coronavirus - Part Two.

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18 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

It's 3291 to 3621 deaths just from that subset of cancers, the numbers will be [considerably] bigger if you add in the deaths from heart attacks and other conditions, caused by lockdown. Then there's the deaths from unemployment, mental illness etc, etc. 

 

The fact that there is no easy answer just not justify the current huge bias towards putting way more value on the lives of the covid vulnerable than on the lives being taken by the lockdown.

 

It does. The Covid deaths are largely preventable. Proper distancing/ mask wearing/ local lockdowns are saving lives. If everyone joined in, more would be saved. Organising the health service effectively should mean that cancers etc are treated too.

 

You do lots of moaning, Dave. What is your vision? What are we doing wrong? What should we do instead?

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20 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

It's 3291 to 3621 deaths just from that subset of cancers, the numbers will be [considerably] bigger if you add in the deaths from heart attacks and other conditions, caused by lockdown. Then there's the deaths from unemployment, mental illness etc, etc. 

The fact that there is no easy answer just not justify the current huge bias towards putting way more value on the lives of the covid vulnerable than on the lives being taken by the lockdown.

The problem is that lives will be lost if there is doubling of COVID cases every two weeks which leads to the NHS being full of COVID patients.

The solution is to get the test and trace service working effiently.

The previous lockdown took months, we cannot go through that again.

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1 minute ago, Pettytom said:

It does. The Covid deaths are largely preventable. Proper distancing/ mask wearing/ local lockdowns are saving lives. If everyone joined in, more would be saved. Organising the health service effectively should mean that cancers etc are treated too.

 

You do lots of moaning, Dave. What is your vision? What are we doing wrong? What should we do instead?

And the lockdown deaths, being caused soley by the lockdown, are also preventable- the study I linked to used the term 'preventable deaths' for the cancer deaths caused by lockdown.

 

I'm no more moaning thqn you are- we are on opposite sides of the issue- you favour lockdown, I favour reducing the lockdown greatly.

 

What we should do, IMO is place a great deal more emphasis on acknowledging and enumerating the deaths that are, and will be, caused by the lockdown, so the public, and the decision makers, will be aware that ramping up lockdown is not necessarily saving lives, because lives saved by the lockdown must be balanced against lives taken by the lockdown.

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1 minute ago, onewheeldave said:

And the lockdown deaths, being caused soley by the lockdown, are also preventable- the study I linked to used the term 'preventable deaths' for the cancer deaths caused by lockdown.

 

I'm no more moaning thqn you are- we are on opposite sides of the issue- you favour lockdown, I favour reducing the lockdown greatly.

 

What we should do, IMO is place a great deal more emphasis on acknowledging and enumerating the deaths that are, and will be, caused by the lockdown, so the public, and the decision makers, will be aware that ramping up lockdown is not necessarily saving lives, because lives saved by the lockdown must be balanced against lives taken by the lockdown.

I’m not particularly in favour of lockdown. Indeed, I think that the current arrangements are highly unsatisfactory, confusing  and counter productive.

 

Since the start of this, you’ve been contrarian. Complaining about masks, restrictions and all kinds of sensible public health measures.

 

I just asked you a straight question. What do you think we should be doing? Your answer is totally underwhelming. You’ve not detailed any sort of actions, just some vague notions of how others might react.

 

I think we should all follow hands, face space. We should also avoid crowded areas, live without pubs and restaurants for a while and mix a little less. I wouldn’t object to a short, time limited lockdown if the scientists suggested it.

 

What do you think we should all be doing?

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12 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

What we should do, IMO is place a great deal more emphasis on acknowledging and enumerating the deaths that are, and will be, caused by the lockdown, so the public, and the decision makers, will be aware that ramping up lockdown is not necessarily saving lives, because lives saved by the lockdown must be balanced against lives taken by the lockdown.

And how many will there be given that excess deaths this summer after the peak of covid deaths were basically zero.

 

Future deaths by covid you class as "scaremongering" yet (apart from the study expecting a regrettable but  relatively small number of additional cancer deaths over 5 years) we haven't seen any evidence of "lives taken by lockdown".

 

Lives taken by covid are real and increasing rapidly again.

 

And this doesn't take account of the effect on the excess hospitalisations the NHS has to cope with, never mind the the poor sods on the front line who have to deal with it.

Edited by Longcol

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7 hours ago, Pettytom said:

So, that’s 4000 avoidable deaths. Which is very sad.

 

Don’t forget that we are losing 300 people per day to Covid. I’ll leave you to do the rest of the maths.

 

There’s no easy answer to any of this

300 deaths not all are from covid 

7 hours ago, Longcol said:

And how many will there be given that excess deaths this summer after the peak of covid deaths were basically zero.

 

Future deaths by covid you class as "scaremongering" yet (apart from the study expecting a regrettable but  relatively small number of additional cancer deaths over 5 years) we haven't seen any evidence of "lives taken by lockdown".

 

Lives taken by covid are real and increasing rapidly again.

 

And this doesn't take account of the effect on the excess hospitalisations the NHS has to cope with, never mind the the poor sods on the front line who have to deal with it.

Lockdown did nothing but why such a massive flar up of cases 

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Well the projections of 300 deaths a day by end of  Oct turned out to be correct.

The epidemiologists say 500 a day by end of Nov.

 

By end of Nov there will be more hospitalised by Covid than  the April peak.

And we are barely starting with winter.

 

A full country lockdown  will be needed,the best way out is track and trace,like South Korea and Germany did,our system was working barely adequately and is getting swamped by sheer numbers.

 

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1 hour ago, ormester said:

300 deaths not all are from covid 

Lockdown did nothing but why such a massive flar up of cases 

Schools are back in. 

People have become too complacent about social distancing /handwashing/mask wearing. 

People fed up of the restrictions so try and get round the rules to meet in large groups (complacency again). 

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1 hour ago, ormester said:

300 deaths not all are from covid 

Lockdown did nothing but why such a massive flar up of cases 

There was too much of a push for ‘let’s get back to normal’ in early September and not enough thinking outside the box. Getting ALL kids back to school being a prime example. Some kind of blended online/face to face schooling should have been introduced WHERE POSSIBLE, particularly for secondary age pupils. 
Then there was the push to reduce home working and of course the return of university students.

All of these created environments with large numbers of people in confined spaces indoors and that was enough to get covid spreading rapidly. 
Unfortunately by this point a lot of people have started to think ‘just protect the vulnerable and let the rest of us get on as normal’ without any understanding of the implications of this.

Edited by redruby

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Previous posters and some MP's have stated the past and present restrictions havn't and are not working,  so my idea is crackers and out of pure frustration, is to let the Vunerable shield and the rest just get back to normal and pass it between them selves ( herd imunity syndrome) surely then the virus will hopefully will have fade away, wishful thinking I suppose, but realisticly this Pandenmic will not stop until a Vaccine is circulated. :roll:

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3 hours ago, ormester said:

300 deaths not all are from covid 

Lockdown did nothing but why such a massive flar up of cases 

2 things, deaths due to covid come under various things, it can affect every part of your body, if you have a kidney complaint, covid may have brought on death from it?

You don't just die from the respiratory aspect

As for your second point, you've Answered yourself, lockdown obviously did work, now there's no lockdown it's flared up again

 

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FFS, another day, another group of more than 6 meeting up.

3 were having breakfast here from 10, about 40 minutes later another group came in, they immediately started talking with the previous group and wanted to sit with them (7 altogether) when we said they couldn't, the first group paid and all trundled out together. They just don't get it, not respecting minor rules Now mean we will have a full lockdown for Christmas :( and they will be the first to whinge

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