Coronavirus - Part Two.

[Anna B 1,401]

We still don't know the long term effects of the vaccine, and even the medical advice is changing all the time. 

Am I correct in thinking pregnant women are now being advised not to have it, or is that more rumour?

[andyofborg 11]

1 minute ago, Anna B said:

We still don't know the long term effects of the vaccine, and even the medical advice is changing all the time. 

Am I correct in thinking pregnant women are now being advised not to have it, or is that more rumour?

they were always advised not to have it. there is no particular evidence that they shouldn't have it or it would be dangerous to have it if they did just that they didn't test it on pregnant women.

[Anna B 1,401]

2 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

i would have thought the average age of death from most things is around 82

If the average age of death for males is actually 79.9 years and 83.6 for women. 

Which makes me wonder if it was worth shutting down an entire economy causing even more deaths was ever a good idea. 

[andyofborg 11]

Just now, Anna B said:

If the average age of death for males is actually 79.9 years and 83.6 for women. 

Which makes me wonder if it was worth shutting down an entire economy causing even more deaths was ever a good idea. 

death isn't particularly the problem, it's the number of people who end up in hospital whether or not they die as that swamps hospitals and means they can't treat other cases and those who survive with long covid who need extended support.  

[nightrider 13]

2 hours ago, Mister M said:

Why has the U.K got one of the highest death tolls of Coronavirus in the world?

A large fraction of our population are elderly or unhealthy (obese etc). Combined that with an incompetent government and we are where we are. 

 

 

[El Cid 214]

2 minutes ago, nightrider said:

A large fraction of our population are elderly or unhealthy (obese etc). Combined that with an incompetent government and we are where we are.

 

And we are very well travelled.

Annual passenger numbers in United Kingdom (UK) airports as of 2013. With a yearly average of 70 million passengers London Heathrow was the most frequented UK airport, followed by London Gatwick with 34 million passengers and Manchester Airport with 20 million.

We are also a very wealthy nation, so I am not letting Boris off the hook, his premiership has been terrible, in every respect.

[Anna B 1,401]

9 minutes ago, nightrider said:

A large fraction of our population are elderly or unhealthy (obese etc). Combined that with an incompetent government and we are where we are. 

 

 

According to Robert peston, taking all such things into account, we still have the worst record in Europe. (And he's a Tory.)

[tinfoilhat 11]

53 minutes ago, nightrider said:

A large fraction of our population are elderly or unhealthy (obese etc). Combined that with an incompetent government and we are where we are. 

 

 

New Zealand have more fat people than us. Lots of countries have older populations than us, Italy and Japan for example. 

[Mister M 1,609]

3 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Depends how the rest of the world are recording their death statistics, what variables are being applied, what time frames, what caveats need to be considered.....

 

I don't take big scary numbers at face value without full context and full disclosure.

 

The death numbers are of course shocking and it is a tragedy for anyone to have to suffer as a result of this disease.

 

But 100,000 people passing away for potentially a multitude of reasons but who also coincidentally had a positive test to coronavirus up to 28 days prior is very different to simply spouting the phrase "...100,000 people have died of the virus..."

 

The media, twitterati the Talking Heads blowing their hot air and doing the finger pointing need to be very aware of that simple caveat.  

 

If they want to be doing the the comparison leagues and looking for the blame game then they need to be sure that the statistics are coming from a level playing field.

On that specific issue, I've been reading an article on the BBC website which mentions figures from the Office of National Statistics relating to Coronavirus deaths. 

Specifically it states

 

• Deaths within 28 days of a positive result -  100,162
• Death Certificate mentions Covid 19 - 103,602
• Deaths over and above the usual number since the outbreak began - 99,211

If as you say there are '100,000 people passing away for potentially a multitude of reasons but who also coincidentally had a positive test to coronavirus up to 28 days prior' then the fact that last year there were 99,211 deaths over and above does seem staggeringly high. 

 

Covid-19: 'Poor decisions' to blame for UK death toll, scientists say - BBC News

 

The article also includes criticism from some public health experts who blame the Government decisions for the UK's terrible death toll.

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Mister M

[petemcewan 27]

El Cid,

The link you provided  makes some interesting points.

This one makes me raise an eyebrow:

 

Quote

Even the benefits of annual vaccination of older people against influenza are unquantified and disputed [16], so the same may occur with COVID-19 vaccination programmes. 

Is it your view that older people shouldn't  trust the Cov-19

vaccines ,because the testing was "rushed" ?

 

Quote

 

Go to:

Abstract

Age associated decline of the immune system continues to be a major health concern. All components of innate and adaptive immunity are adversely affected to lesser or greater extent by ageing resulting in an overall decline of immunocompetence. As a result in the aged population, there is increased susceptibility to infection, poor responses to vaccination, and increased incidence of autoreactivity. There is an increasing focus on the role of T cells during ageing because of their impact on the overall immune responses.

 

 

 

The link you provided is basically saying the same as the Abstract

 

 

 

 

Because of the above:

We are urged by our GPs to have an annual Flu  vaccination-even with the Flu vaccine relatively low effectiveness. As we get older our T  lymphocyte production declines. Vaccination gives us a bit of an immune boost. It's better to have some protection than none at all. IMO it's going to be the same with Covid vaccination.

The mRNA vaccines appear to stimulate a CD4/CD8 cell response as well as an antibody response-which is good for older people.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2814-7

 

Weighing up the evidence needed to make an informed choice to  have a vaccination or not .I'm going to have my second mRNA vaccination as soon as it's available. So I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

 

I'm certainly going to follow closely whether or not over 65yrs old in Europe get vaccinated.

 

Quote

When the test were carried out, COVID was less common. Out of 630 people how many would you expect to get COVID?

There's no way you or I can answer that question.

[apelike 10]

This is worth a gander.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-breakthrough-treatment-claims-to-stop-100-of-symptomatic-infections-12200072

[El Cid 214]

2 hours ago, petemcewan said:

There's no way you or I can answer that question.

In Jan 2020 less than 20% of the population have had COVID, when the volunteers were given the vaccine the number of people that already had COVID was probably less than 5%.

So the figure is likely to be less than 2%, so the vaccine was tested on less than 20  older people?