Coronavirus - Part Two.

[Arnold_Lane 0]

5 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

You're not worried that any authority with a pet doctor can now section anyone they want? Not concerned that, even pre-covid, sectioning was being used as a weapon to imprison autistic people for years at a time?

 

 

No.

[the_bloke 17]

56 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

The point is, prior to the covid Act, 2 doctors were required to section a person, one of whom must know the patient- now, all it takes is one doctor, who doesn't have to know the patient. Yes, there are things in place, and, of course, systems work well, especially the mental health systems, don't they? So no problem, and no chance of anyone being sectioned wrongly, eh?

 

Please do not presume to judge

[snip]

56 minutes ago, onewheeldave said:

 

Do others on this thread concur with these 2 geniuses, that the removal of the requirement for 2 doctors, one of whom must know the patient, to be necessary for sectioning [now replaced by just one, who doesn't need to know the patient], is not a substantial threat to civil liberties?

 

You're not worried that any authority with a pet doctor can now section anyone they want? Not concerned that, even pre-covid, sectioning was being used as a weapon to imprison autistic people for years at a time?

 

 

Tells me not to judge, then sarcastically calls me a genius. 

 

Or if it wasn't sarcasm, then thankyou.

 

It's quite clear that these changes are to keep the system running in the event of a lack of healthcare professionals and to make sure that people with mental health needs continue to get help without being subject to unwelcome delays to care due to a shortage of staff, either because they are working elsewhere due to the pandemic or they are ill themselves.

 

So you have two choices; a temporary change in the system, or no change and risk delays. You presumably don't want either, so what's your solution?

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, onewheeldave said:

The point is, prior to the covid Act, 2 doctors were required to section a person, one of whom must know the patient- now, all it takes is one doctor, who doesn't have to know the patient. Yes, there are things in place, and, of course, systems work well, especially the mental health systems, don't they? So no problem, and no chance of anyone being sectioned wrongly, eh?

 

Please do not presume to judge what I'd be complaining about if "mental health services were operating too slowly". As an autistic person I am painfully aware of the abysmal state of mental health services even when things are running normally, and the fact that for many autistic people, mental health services are used as a weapon against them, to lock them up against their will for months or years, keeping them in institutions which are totally ignorant of the requirements of autistic people.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/03/detaining-autistic-people-prison-like-hospitals-morally-wrong-say-families-9794410/

 

"

Autism is not a mental health disorder – yet hundreds of autistic people remain trapped inside mental health hospitals across the UK. There, they are often left in seclusion, denied their independence and kept overmedicated, campaigners say. Two families are now fighting to change the Mental Health Act to stop people with autism and learning difficulties from being ‘wrongly’ sectioned. Inder Johar, 56, cares for his autistic son Anmol, 24, along with his wife Rani, 54, and a specialist support worker. He has previously inspected Assessment and Treatment Units (ATUs) with the CQC and described them as being ‘like prisons’"

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/18/mum-hits-inhumane-system-saw-autistic-son-sectioned-abused-12869447/

 

"

Thousands of people with learning disabilities and autism who are ‘locked away behind closed doors’ in mental health hospitals, are being ‘forgotten’ amid the pandemic, a charity has said. Patients are often stuck on hospital wards in England for years and are often over-medicated and abused, according to campaigners, despite continued NHS promises to move their care into the community.

 

Mencap said the national ‘human rights scandal’ must come to an end, as it revealed that most patients on wards in England by the end of February had been there at least a year, while almost 200 had been hospitalised for more than a decade. According to the charity, patients were also subject to more than 20,000 restrictive interventions in the six months to February, which included physical restraint, seclusion and drugging.

 

Mum Leo Andrade, from London, is one of many parents across the country who have fought tirelessly for their children’s release, claiming they have been mistreated, physically abused and neglected on hospital wards. Her son Stephen Andrade-Martinez, who has severe autism, spent six years in different mental health units after he was sectioned under the Mental Health Act aged 18. Leo said Stephen, now 25, suffered from unexplained injuries, was over-medicated, and stuck indoors for months at a time. She feared he wouldn’t make it out alive."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50252079

 

"'My autistic daughter was held in a cell for two years'

 

"They placed her in a seclusion cell and they left her there for two years, alone, 24/7, horrific."

Jeremy says he could only touch his 15-year-old daughter Bethany by kneeling down and reaching into her isolation room through a tiny hatch.

Bethany is severely autistic but had no therapeutic care while detained in hospital, Jeremy told the BBC.

Now MPs and peers say such treatment of young people with learning disabilities or autism breaches their human rights.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights says mental health hospitals can inflict "terrible suffering on those detained... causing anguish to their distraught families".

Its report urges an overhaul of mental health law and hospital inspections in England.

"It must not be allowed to continue," said Harriet Harman, who chairs the committee."

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

I myself, and several other vulnerable people I know, totally refuse to contact any 'help' organisation in the event of feeling suicidal, due to past horrific experiences with 'menatl health crisis teams' and, knowing full well that any professional in any organisation is obliged to pass up the chain information about clients they consider to be at risk of suicide, which leads to said clients door being kicked in, and them dragged away for 'assessment' by a group of people they consider to be utterly inept and want nothing to do with.

 

 

That's useful, and so insightful.

 

Do others on this thread concur with these 2 geniuses, that the removal of the requirement for 2 doctors, one of whom must know the patient, to be necessary for sectioning [now replaced by just one, who doesn't need to know the patient], is not a substantial threat to civil liberties?

 

You're not worried that any authority with a pet doctor can now section anyone they want? Not concerned that, even pre-covid, sectioning was being used as a weapon to imprison autistic people for years at a time?

 

 

So if the doctor (or doctors) that know them are self isolating for 2 weeks, then what?

[Arnold_Lane 0]

7 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

So if the doctor (or doctors) that know them are self isolating for 2 weeks, then what?

Dave still won't want to wear a face covering.

[Anna B 1,401]

2 hours ago, onewheeldave said:

The point is, prior to the covid Act, 2 doctors were required to section a person, one of whom must know the patient- now, all it takes is one doctor, who doesn't have to know the patient. Yes, there are things in place, and, of course, systems work well, especially the mental health systems, don't they? So no problem, and no chance of anyone being sectioned wrongly, eh?

 

Please do not presume to judge what I'd be complaining about if "mental health services were operating too slowly". As an autistic person I am painfully aware of the abysmal state of mental health services even when things are running normally, and the fact that for many autistic people, mental health services are used as a weapon against them, to lock them up against their will for months or years, keeping them in institutions which are totally ignorant of the requirements of autistic people.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/03/detaining-autistic-people-prison-like-hospitals-morally-wrong-say-families-9794410/

 

"

Autism is not a mental health disorder – yet hundreds of autistic people remain trapped inside mental health hospitals across the UK. There, they are often left in seclusion, denied their independence and kept overmedicated, campaigners say. Two families are now fighting to change the Mental Health Act to stop people with autism and learning difficulties from being ‘wrongly’ sectioned. Inder Johar, 56, cares for his autistic son Anmol, 24, along with his wife Rani, 54, and a specialist support worker. He has previously inspected Assessment and Treatment Units (ATUs) with the CQC and described them as being ‘like prisons’"

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/18/mum-hits-inhumane-system-saw-autistic-son-sectioned-abused-12869447/

 

"

Thousands of people with learning disabilities and autism who are ‘locked away behind closed doors’ in mental health hospitals, are being ‘forgotten’ amid the pandemic, a charity has said. Patients are often stuck on hospital wards in England for years and are often over-medicated and abused, according to campaigners, despite continued NHS promises to move their care into the community.

 

Mencap said the national ‘human rights scandal’ must come to an end, as it revealed that most patients on wards in England by the end of February had been there at least a year, while almost 200 had been hospitalised for more than a decade. According to the charity, patients were also subject to more than 20,000 restrictive interventions in the six months to February, which included physical restraint, seclusion and drugging.

 

Mum Leo Andrade, from London, is one of many parents across the country who have fought tirelessly for their children’s release, claiming they have been mistreated, physically abused and neglected on hospital wards. Her son Stephen Andrade-Martinez, who has severe autism, spent six years in different mental health units after he was sectioned under the Mental Health Act aged 18. Leo said Stephen, now 25, suffered from unexplained injuries, was over-medicated, and stuck indoors for months at a time. She feared he wouldn’t make it out alive."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50252079

 

"'My autistic daughter was held in a cell for two years'

 

"They placed her in a seclusion cell and they left her there for two years, alone, 24/7, horrific."

Jeremy says he could only touch his 15-year-old daughter Bethany by kneeling down and reaching into her isolation room through a tiny hatch.

Bethany is severely autistic but had no therapeutic care while detained in hospital, Jeremy told the BBC.

Now MPs and peers say such treatment of young people with learning disabilities or autism breaches their human rights.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights says mental health hospitals can inflict "terrible suffering on those detained... causing anguish to their distraught families".

Its report urges an overhaul of mental health law and hospital inspections in England.

"It must not be allowed to continue," said Harriet Harman, who chairs the committee."

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

I myself, and several other vulnerable people I know, totally refuse to contact any 'help' organisation in the event of feeling suicidal, due to past horrific experiences with 'menatl health crisis teams' and, knowing full well that any professional in any organisation is obliged to pass up the chain information about clients they consider to be at risk of suicide, which leads to said clients door being kicked in, and them dragged away for 'assessment' by a group of people they consider to be utterly inept and want nothing to do with.

 

 

That's useful, and so insightful.

 

Do others on this thread concur with these 2 geniuses, that the removal of the requirement for 2 doctors, one of whom must know the patient, to be necessary for sectioning [now replaced by just one, who doesn't need to know the patient], is not a substantial threat to civil liberties?

 

You're not worried that any authority with a pet doctor can now section anyone they want? Not concerned that, even pre-covid, sectioning was being used as a weapon to imprison autistic people for years at a time?

 

 

Good post, for those who can be bothered to read it.

 

My sympathy is with those who have mental health issues but are undiagnosed or outside the system, of which there are many. 

The system is almost impossible to navigate for even a well person, full of confusion, idiocy and frustration, so how they can manage it I can't imagine. I suspect the truth is they simply can't and get into an even worse state from which they never recover.

 

 

[Arnold_Lane 0]

3 minutes ago, Anna B said:

Good post, for those who can be bothered to read it.

 

My sympathy is with those who have mental health issues but are undiagnosed or outside the system, of which there are many. 

The system is almost impossible to navigate for even a well person, full of confusion, idiocy and frustration, so how they can manage it I can't imagine. I suspect the truth is they simply can't and get into an even worse state from which they never recover.

 

 

You clearly didn't.  It is saying autism is not a mental health issue.

 

Do you think autism is a mental health issue?  If you do, then you can't think Dave's post is good.  If you don't then by discussing mental health issues it shows you haven't understood it.

 

Oh well.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Arnold_Lane

[Anna B 1,401]

1 hour ago, the_bloke said:

[snip]

Tells me not to judge, then sarcastically calls me a genius. 

 

Or if it wasn't sarcasm, then thankyou.

 

It's quite clear that these changes are to keep the system running in the event of a lack of healthcare professionals and to make sure that people with mental health needs continue to get help without being subject to unwelcome delays to care due to a shortage of staff, either because they are working elsewhere due to the pandemic or they are ill themselves.

 

So you have two choices; a temporary change in the system, or no change and risk delays. You presumably don't want either, so what's your solution?

But will it be a temporary change? These things have ways of staying on the statute book long after their relevance, which then turn round and bite people long after they are appropriate for purpose.

 

 

[Arnold_Lane 0]

1 minute ago, Anna B said:

But will it be a temporary change? These things have ways of staying on the statute book long after their relevance, which then turn round and bite people long after they are appropriate for purpose.

 

 

Yeah, who can forget all those people that received the death penalty for arson in the royal dockyards over the last few years.

 

Why not give us an example of some of these things?

 

Just because you insinuate something doesn't make it true.

[Vaati 11]

Getting rather fed up with the bickering and personal attack posts today.  If anyone feels like continuing you WILL get a forum holiday.

[onewheeldave 22]

44 minutes ago, Arnold_Lane said:

You clearly didn't.  It is saying autism is not a mental health issue.

 

 

Autism isn't a mental illness, though, due to the stress of living in a society designed by, and for, neurotypicals, who, in the main, are incapable of empathy with any neurotype other than their own, most high functioning autistics will have some degree of co-morbid mental health issues, especially anxiety, and, a 9 times higher rate of suicidality than the national average.

[Anna B 1,401]

1 hour ago, Arnold_Lane said:

You clearly didn't.  It is saying autism is not a mental health issue.

 

Do you think autism is a mental health issue?  If you do, then you can't think Dave's post is good.  If you don't then by discussing mental health issues it shows you haven't understood it.

 

Oh well.

That is not what what Onewheeldave is saying in his post. He is saying  it is  difficult to diagnose,  often misdiagnosed and treatment often wrong and inappropriate. He quotes various other people including medical bodies to illustrate this. By reducing the need for two concurring  doctors mistakes are more likely to happen. 

 

Of course Autism exists but it is a spectrum disorder and can affect people in very different ways, from mild Aspergers to major behavioural disorders, and it can merge with or be mistaken for other conditions.. It still isn't fully understood by most doctors, certainly if they haven't had specific experience of it. 

 

As far as I'm aware most mental disorders fail to have 'one size fits all' criteria and cannot be scientifically measured, therefore medically they 'don't exist.'   

Edited October 26, 2020 by Anna B

[Arnold_Lane 0]

53 minutes ago, Anna B said:

That is not what what Onewheeldave is saying in his post. He is saying  it is  difficult to diagnose,  often misdiagnosed and treatment often wrong and inappropriate. He quotes various other people including medical bodies to illustrate this. By reducing the need for two concurring  doctors mistakes are more likely to happen. 

 

Of course Autism exists but it is a spectrum disorder and can affect people in very different ways, from mild Aspergers to major behavioural disorders, and it can merge with or be mistaken for other conditions.. It still isn't fully understood by most doctors, certainly if they haven't had specific experience of it. 

 

As far as I'm aware most mental disorders fail to have 'one size fits all' criteria and cannot be scientifically measured, therefore medically they 'don't exist.'   

Your final paragraph suggests you still don’t realise that Dave is saying autism is not a mental disorder.