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Coronavirus - Part Two.

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Onewheeldave. 

The discrimination you describe in the first paragraph (thread 2184)

makes me very sad.

 

The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the Health and Social Care Act 2004 might have been a better choice-and less worrisome as far as Liberties and Rights are concerned-for dealing with this emergency.

However,we have the Corona Virus Act 2020.

Whatever Liberties and Rights are infringed by the Act  will have to be restored.

That means one will have to campaign for their restoration .

If HMG won't give them back ,we have to take them back.

 

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8 minutes ago, petemcewan said:

.......we have the Corona Virus Act 2020.

Whatever Liberties and Rights are infringed by the Act  will have to be restored.

That means one will have to campaign for their restoration .

If HMG won't give them back ,we have to take them back.

 

So, if you are a private person who gave your contact details to your restaurant or pub so you could be contacted by them in case of an outbreak, knowing that they were only for that purpose, you may be very miffed if they were passed on to the police, local Council and whoever else in an information grab. 

 

Do you really think that your privacy could somehow be restored and all copies of your details be permanently deleted by everybody they get passed to?

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2 hours ago, Longcol said:

Not enough trained intensive care nurses. You can't conjure them up overnight.

 

2 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

Didn't have the staff for the nightingale hospitals.

what i heard is they wern't needed as the original lockdown worked and cut transmissions so hospital admissions went down?

1 minute ago, Thirsty Relic said:

So, if you are a private person who gave your contact details to your restaurant or pub so you could be contacted by them in case of an outbreak, knowing that they were only for that purpose, you may be very miffed if they were passed on to the police, local Council and whoever else in an information grab. 

 

Do you really think that your privacy could somehow be restored and all copies of your details be permanently deleted by everybody they get passed to?

I take peoples details for my job in hospitality, i know for a fact we do NOTHING with them, they get locked in the office for 21 days, then like they are meant to the boss takes them to get shredded

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27 minutes ago, petemcewan said:

Onewheeldave. 

The discrimination you describe in the first paragraph (thread 2184)

makes me very sad.

 

 

 

It makes me sad, and angry...

3 hours ago, onewheeldave said:

I personally know of several people [and I'm autistic, classed as socially isolated and so have much less social interaction than average] who are unable to use public transport, despite being mask exempt, due to perceived and/or actual hostility from the public, or who have been denied access to shops, again, despite being mask exempt.

 

 

...and it makes the victims sad, it is especially unfortunate as they face more than enough prejudice at the best of times, and to watch society put the boot in further as soon as there is a crisis, is quite sickening [although absolutely the norm].

 

Meanwhile the majority of the pro-lockdown public are in complete denial that it is happening.

3 hours ago, andyofborg said:

 

 

what liberties have been reduced?  for the vast majority of the population masks is not even an inconvenience. I appreciate that there are those who find it difficult but there are exemptions. 

 

Which are, for some people, being ignored.

Edited by onewheeldave

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2 hours ago, Longcol said:

To stop the NHS being totally overwhelmed by people who need hospitalisation.

 

2 hours ago, Longcol said:

Not enough trained intensive care nurses. You can't conjure them up overnight.

 

2 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

Didn't have the staff for the nightingale hospitals.

No- it was not enough patients!

 

The nightingale hospitals were constructed on the basis of predictions of vastly greater numbers of hospitalisations which turned out to be grossly incorrect- not only were the Nightingale wards not required, neither were most of the standard NHS hospital wards closed necessary. As a result, many people with serious illnesses like cancer, were denied treatment, while the wards were empty and unused.

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35 minutes ago, petemcewan said:

 

 

The Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the Health and Social Care Act 2004 might have been a better choice-and less worrisome as far as Liberties and Rights are concerned-for dealing with this emergency.

However,we have the Corona Virus Act 2020.

Whatever Liberties and Rights are infringed by the Act  will have to be restored.

That means one will have to campaign for their restoration .

If HMG won't give them back ,we have to take them back.

 

I brought it up in response to a poster who was implying that civil liberties were not being removed- clearly they very much are.

 

Do you not think that in any one of the many historical instances where civil liberties started being stripped, leading to cruel state dictatorships and the deaths and misery of millions, that, when it first started, people would comfort themselves with 'they'll be restored when the crisis is over'? Or 'if the govt won't give them back ,we have to take them back'? Look at how actual historical instances turned out.

 

Fact is that an Act to deal with coronavirus never should have included clauses whereby it is easier to section people, should it?

 

Almost as disturbing is

a) the the vast majority of the public have got no idea that it has been done,

and

b) as soon as someone mentions the damge done to civil liberties by Covid measures, they are labelled as conspiracy theorists!

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The fact is civil liberties were very hard won, and are very easily lost. They were not 'given' to people by those in charge, but had to be fought for. Taking them away is adictive for the power hungry. They will need to be reminded to restore them, or they will be conveniently forgotten about and remain on the statute books until they suddenly resurface in what could be a totally different context and with serious implications for the little man.

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Onewheeldave.

I certainly do not think of you as a conspiracy theorist.

 

Quote

Do you not think that in any one of the many historical instances where civil liberties started being stripped, leading to cruel state dictatorships and the deaths and misery of millions, that, when it first started, people would comfort themselves with 'they'll be restored when the crisis is over'? Or 'if the govt won't give them back ,we have to take them back'? Look at how actual historical instances turned out.

In the above paragraphs you are asking me to speculate as to the state of mind of people in certain historical circumstances. No one can give an objective answer to that.

The final sentence ,"Look at how actual  historical  instances turned out" .

I'm puzzled by that .Are you implying  that history teaches us that  to fight the State for Rights and Liberties  that were once enjoyed is doomed to failure?

 

I'm more than convinced that the Public-when organised-are capable  of

wresting  back from the State their Liberties and Rights.

 

In fact, theirs a Petition out now to get rid of the Covid 2020 Act

 https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/313310

Of course 

I subscribe to the maxim, "The price of  freedom is eternal vigilance

Quote

Fact is that an Act to deal with coronavirus never should have included clauses whereby it is easier to section people, should it?

Yes I do agree with the above point you make.

 

 

Finally, the Governments, that abide by social democratic principle do not enjoy  a condition that  puts them beyond public pressure when dealing with Policy and Law.

 

If  our Government insists on keeping aspects of the Coronavirus 2020 Act -when  no longer appropriate- that clearly infringe Rights and Liberties.

Then that is the time to apply the pressure.

https://www.questia.com/library/journal/1G1-344156448/how-does-public-opinion-influence-the-law

 

 

Edited by petemcewan

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19 hours ago, onewheeldave said:

Fact is that an Act to deal with coronavirus never should have included clauses whereby it is easier to section people, should it?

This was discussed before; the Act has sections in it to ensure that the mental health sector can continue to operate with an expected reduction of health care professionals due to a pandemic. You still need a healthcare professional to section someone and they need to provide proof in the report as to why the usual process of having two professionals available to section someone cannot be followed.

 

If things like this weren't in place, you'd be complaining that mental health services were operating too slowly because staff weren't available to process things quick enough.

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On 24/10/2020 at 15:10, charliewag said:

The only change for us is that my missus may have to work the odd day from home to reduce the the number of people in the office. As for me, i'm still allowed to go fishing locally so i'm happy with that.

I hope its true  about what you say about fishing, are people allowed to travel to their local fishery, thinking  one person per vehicle unless carrying  another family member.

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3 hours ago, the_bloke said:

If things like this weren't in place, you'd be complaining that mental health services were operating too slowly because staff weren't available to process things quick enough.

Some people will use any excuse to try and disguise the fact that the simple truth is they don't like wearing a mask.

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4 hours ago, the_bloke said:

This was discussed before; the Act has sections in it to ensure that the mental health sector can continue to operate with an expected reduction of health care professionals due to a pandemic. You still need a healthcare professional to section someone and they need to provide proof in the report as to why the usual process of having two professionals available to section someone cannot be followed.

 

If things like this weren't in place, you'd be complaining that mental health services were operating too slowly because staff weren't available to process things quick enough.

The point is, prior to the covid Act, 2 doctors were required to section a person, one of whom must know the patient- now, all it takes is one doctor, who doesn't have to know the patient. Yes, there are things in place, and, of course, systems work well, especially the mental health systems, don't they? So no problem, and no chance of anyone being sectioned wrongly, eh?

 

Please do not presume to judge what I'd be complaining about if "mental health services were operating too slowly". As an autistic person I am painfully aware of the abysmal state of mental health services even when things are running normally, and the fact that for many autistic people, mental health services are used as a weapon against them, to lock them up against their will for months or years, keeping them in institutions which are totally ignorant of the requirements of autistic people.

 

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/03/detaining-autistic-people-prison-like-hospitals-morally-wrong-say-families-9794410/

 

"

Autism is not a mental health disorder – yet hundreds of autistic people remain trapped inside mental health hospitals across the UK. There, they are often left in seclusion, denied their independence and kept overmedicated, campaigners say. Two families are now fighting to change the Mental Health Act to stop people with autism and learning difficulties from being ‘wrongly’ sectioned. Inder Johar, 56, cares for his autistic son Anmol, 24, along with his wife Rani, 54, and a specialist support worker. He has previously inspected Assessment and Treatment Units (ATUs) with the CQC and described them as being ‘like prisons’"

 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/18/mum-hits-inhumane-system-saw-autistic-son-sectioned-abused-12869447/

 

"

Thousands of people with learning disabilities and autism who are ‘locked away behind closed doors’ in mental health hospitals, are being ‘forgotten’ amid the pandemic, a charity has said. Patients are often stuck on hospital wards in England for years and are often over-medicated and abused, according to campaigners, despite continued NHS promises to move their care into the community.

 

Mencap said the national ‘human rights scandal’ must come to an end, as it revealed that most patients on wards in England by the end of February had been there at least a year, while almost 200 had been hospitalised for more than a decade. According to the charity, patients were also subject to more than 20,000 restrictive interventions in the six months to February, which included physical restraint, seclusion and drugging.

 

Mum Leo Andrade, from London, is one of many parents across the country who have fought tirelessly for their children’s release, claiming they have been mistreated, physically abused and neglected on hospital wards. Her son Stephen Andrade-Martinez, who has severe autism, spent six years in different mental health units after he was sectioned under the Mental Health Act aged 18. Leo said Stephen, now 25, suffered from unexplained injuries, was over-medicated, and stuck indoors for months at a time. She feared he wouldn’t make it out alive."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-50252079

 

"'My autistic daughter was held in a cell for two years'

 

"They placed her in a seclusion cell and they left her there for two years, alone, 24/7, horrific."

Jeremy says he could only touch his 15-year-old daughter Bethany by kneeling down and reaching into her isolation room through a tiny hatch.

Bethany is severely autistic but had no therapeutic care while detained in hospital, Jeremy told the BBC.

Now MPs and peers say such treatment of young people with learning disabilities or autism breaches their human rights.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights says mental health hospitals can inflict "terrible suffering on those detained... causing anguish to their distraught families".

Its report urges an overhaul of mental health law and hospital inspections in England.

"It must not be allowed to continue," said Harriet Harman, who chairs the committee."

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

I myself, and several other vulnerable people I know, totally refuse to contact any 'help' organisation in the event of feeling suicidal, due to past horrific experiences with 'menatl health crisis teams' and, knowing full well that any professional in any organisation is obliged to pass up the chain information about clients they consider to be at risk of suicide, which leads to said clients door being kicked in, and them dragged away for 'assessment' by a group of people they consider to be utterly inept and want nothing to do with.

 

 

1 hour ago, Arnold_Lane said:

Some people will use any excuse to try and disguise the fact that the simple truth is they don't like wearing a mask.

That's useful, and so insightful.

 

Do others on this thread concur with these 2 geniuses, that the removal of the requirement for 2 doctors, one of whom must know the patient, to be necessary for sectioning [now replaced by just one, who doesn't need to know the patient], is not a substantial threat to civil liberties?

 

You're not worried that any authority with a pet doctor can now section anyone they want? Not concerned that, even pre-covid, sectioning was being used as a weapon to imprison autistic people for years at a time?

 

 

Edited by onewheeldave

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