Coronavirus - Part Two.

[Tomm06 12]

22 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I think it will be an awful lot more than half a million. Small businesses (under 20) don’t have to do consultations for redundancy. Government seems happy to bin the arts off so that’s a lot of people signing on. 

 

But arguably, sticking a mask on, washing your hands and keeping your distance does work. What have Germany done that’s radically different? Their population (90%) have complied.

I mean I think anyone would find it difficult to disagree good sanitation is beneficial. The masks - well there seems to be mixed feelings on those it seems, depending on which studies or data sets you wish to believe. 

 

Even in spite of the entire country doing this we are still seeing tension and collapse of business and industry. In terms of hospitality and the arts etc the restrictions and the mask wearing is what is killing it. 

 

I'm pretty sure we have had this discussion before re: what can't you do with a mask on and after speaking to a considerable amount of friends/colleagues etc I've found that most if not all are just not interested in taking part in things like going for a pint or going to the cinema if everything is clinical and restricted. I would guess because as per the 'norm' we use these industries and businesses to try and relax, wind down or even enjoy ourselves. If the fun is taken away and the experiences are limited then it will die out. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Tomm06

[petemcewan 27]

Best keep an eye on the science

 

https://www.the-scientist.com/features/the-surgisphere-scandal-what-went-wrong--67955

The last paragraph says it all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by petemcewan

[tinfoilhat 11]

12 hours ago, Tomm06 said:

I mean I think anyone would find it difficult to disagree good sanitation is beneficial. The masks - well there seems to be mixed feelings on those it seems, depending on which studies or data sets you wish to believe. 

 

Even in spite of the entire country doing this we are still seeing tension and collapse of business and industry. In terms of hospitality and the arts etc the restrictions and the mask wearing is what is killing it. 

 

I'm pretty sure we have had this discussion before re: what can't you do with a mask on and after speaking to a considerable amount of friends/colleagues etc I've found that most if not all are just not interested in taking part in things like going for a pint or going to the cinema if everything is clinical and restricted. I would guess because as per the 'norm' we use these industries and businesses to try and relax, wind down or even enjoy ourselves. If the fun is taken away and the experiences are limited then it will die out. 

I know what you're saying about creative industries (worth 120bn compared with fishing at £1.4bn). They could die out. The chancellor is actively encouraging people to retrain, and many won't go back, companies that go bust certainly won't come back. 

 

If the vaccine we are promised doesn't go a really long way to cracking this, I don't know what happens.

[nightrider 13]

47 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

I know what you're saying about creative industries (worth 120bn compared with fishing at £1.4bn). They could die out. The chancellor is actively encouraging people to retrain, and many won't go back, companies that go bust certainly won't come back. 

 

If the vaccine we are promised doesn't go a really long way to cracking this, I don't know what happens.

what is he suggesting they retrain to do though? Generally education is now expensive (tuition fees) and may not be debt some want to take on. Also if they have children they may need to actually earn money to stay afloat, so retraining is a non-starter anyway.

 

Seems to me some of our European neighbours are supporting such industries to hibernate and have people ready to go once things return to normal. I suppose you get what you vote for though!

Edited October 7, 2020 by nightrider

[apelike 10]

Looks like a lot of health professionals including scientists are not happy about lockdowns either.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54442386

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by apelike

[catmiss 12]

8 hours ago, apelike said:

Looks like a lot of health professionals including scientists are not happy about lockdowns either.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54442386

 

 

The Barrington declaration signed by many scientists and apparently gaining wider support advocates a return to normal activity for the majority whilst ‘protecting and supporting’ the most vulnerable. They claim the imposition of restrictions only suppresses infection which rises quickly when they are relaxed. They also claim any additional resulting deaths would be negated by lives saved by a fully functioning NHS ,a recovering economy and improving mental health 

[Longcol 604]

 

19 minutes ago, catmiss said:

The Barrington declaration signed by many scientists and apparently gaining wider support advocates a return to normal activity for the majority whilst ‘protecting and supporting’ the most vulnerable. They claim the imposition of restrictions only suppresses infection which rises quickly when they are relaxed. They also claim any additional resulting deaths would be negated by lives saved by a fully functioning NHS ,a recovering economy and improving mental health 

Seems like a not very well thought through argument for "herd immunity" at a time when we don't even know  if someone who has had the virus is immune and if so for how long.

 

And it's a relative handful of scientists apparently linked to Trumps favoured covid advisor, Scott Atlas.

 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/great-barrington-declaration-herd-immunity-scientific-divide

 

"On Twitter, the economist and statistician Tim Harford noted the “scientists divided” theme featured prominently in the campaigns of tobacco firms keen to delay action on smoking-related disease and climate change deniers. We should be careful about how we interpret any so-called divide when it comes to Covid-19. And when we’re weighing up whether one approach is better than another, we should be extremely clear about what is science, what is supposition and what is just surface."

 

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-barrington-declaration-an-open-letter-arguing-against-lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

 

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Longcol

[catmiss 12]

13 minutes ago, Longcol said:

Seems like a not very well thought through argument for "herd immunity" at a time when we don't even know  if someone who has had the virus is immune and if so for how long.

 

And it's a relative handful of scientists apparently linked to Trumps favoured covid advisor, Scott Atlas.

 

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/great-barrington-declaration-herd-immunity-scientific-divide

 

"On Twitter, the economist and statistician Tim Harford noted the “scientists divided” theme featured prominently in the campaigns of tobacco firms keen to delay action on smoking-related disease and climate change deniers. We should be careful about how we interpret any so-called divide when it comes to Covid-19. And when we’re weighing up whether one approach is better than another, we should be extremely clear about what is science, what is supposition and what is just surface."

 

https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-barrington-declaration-an-open-letter-arguing-against-lockdown-policies-and-for-focused-protection/

 

 

I watched a tv item today with scientist contributors from both camps, both from British universities, and both with persuasive arguments so I am a fence sitter. I’m also one of the ‘vulnerable’ who, after a brief sojourn into the new normal, has returned to self isolating with rates rising,  a situation which neither solution will solve

Edited October 7, 2020 by catmiss
Grammar

[Longcol 604]

16 minutes ago, catmiss said:

I watched a tv item today with scientist contributors from both camps, both from British universities, and both with persuasive arguments so I am a fence sitter. I’m also one of the ‘vulnerable’ who, after a brief sojourn into the new normal, has returned to self isolating with rates rising,  a situation which neither solution will solve

I find this worrying from the BBC article posted by apelike, given the numerous **** ups on testing in this country - and as I said earlier - we don't know if someone who has had corvid is immune and for how long

 

"The declaration recommends a number of measures to protect the vulnerable, including regular testing of care-home workers, with a move as far as possible towards using staff who have acquired immunity."

 

And it's not as if care home residents are the only vulnerable group.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Longcol

[catmiss 12]

3 minutes ago, Longcol said:

I find this worrying from the BBC article posted by apelike, given the numerous **** ups on testing in this country - and as I said earlier - we don't know if someone who has had corvid is immune and for how long

 

"The declaration recommends a number of measures to protect the vulnerable, including regular testing of care-home workers, with a move as far as possible towards using staff who have acquired immunity."

 

 

You’ve hit the nail on the head, without a sufficient and efficient test, track and trace system supported by top notch IT systems and data analysis no measures will be fully effective. Not helped by factory new robotics causing , amongst other diagnostics, shortage of Covid testing swabs. 

[petemcewan 27]

 There is little about the Great Barrington Declaration that feels convincingly scientific.

The GBD website, boasts that the statement has been signed by 2,780(how true is that ?) “Medical and Public Health Scientists” .  The brief declaration itself, offers little in the way of scientific evidence or even substantially new policy suggestions. 

 Almost every single major medical body is on the “side” of not allowing Covid-19 to run rampant  through young people.

 

https://www.channel4.com/news/great-barrington-declaration-is-not-scientific-or-accurate-says-prof-devi-sridhar

(My apologise for the size of the font. My glasses are to blame).

Prof .Livermore knocks the idea of a "Perfect Vaccine" and then grasps  herd immunity as a way out. At this point ,medical science doesn't know for sure whether or not lasting immunity can be acquired to Cov-19.

Edited October 8, 2020 by nikki-red

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, Longcol said:

I find this worrying from the BBC article posted by apelike, given the numerous **** ups on testing in this country - and as I said earlier - we don't know if someone who has had corvid is immune and for how long

 

"The declaration recommends a number of measures to protect the vulnerable, including regular testing of care-home workers, with a move as far as possible towards using staff who have acquired immunity."

 

And it's not as if care home residents are the only vulnerable group.

 

Wait a minute, that last time I looked, getting covid gave you immunity for about 3 months. What's changed?