Re Writing Of History

[tinfoilhat 11]

45 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

There is a considerable art collection donated to Manchester University by the founder of the Guardian, but I'm not aware of statues or memorials. I'm sure no one will demand its destroyed though.

 

Who determines if the wrongs of the past have been forgiven? What's to say that some of the subjects of these statues wouldn't have changed their viewpoint if they had managed to live long enough, like the Guardian changed it's viewpoint? We don't know.

The daily mail was a HUGE fan of Hitler.

[RollingJ 1,993]

12 minutes ago, the_bloke said:

Exactly.

 

At what point does achievements out trump their world views.

 

I see earlier Orwell's 1984 was mentioned; Orwell was famously a massive homophobe. Does his contribution to literature outweigh his awful views of homosexuality, and is his contributions greater than that of Churchill, whose contributions it seems don't outweigh his negative views on race?

 

Or is it, as I suspect, Marx and Orwell get away with being racist and/or homophobes because they were socialists.

I mentioned Orwell, I read and enjoyed the book - still do, and to me his beliefs on the subject you mention do not negate the fact that the book is an interesting and forward-thinking piece of literature.

 

As to is/was his contribution greater than Churchill's - IMO, no.

 

Your final comment is worthy of examination, but so far as the majority of posters on this board are concerned, I suspect the answer is yes.

2 minutes ago, altus said:

Most people have neither the time nor the inclination to do that and will just rely on what's on the plinth - 'That Jimmy Saville must have been a great guy, it says here he did loads of stuff for charity'.

Valid point, but I bet they don't even read the plaque.

[tinfoilhat 11]

53 minutes ago, Pettytom said:

In which case, you will listen carefully to the many voices who would like the statues of tyrants removed and replaced with something more suitable.

 

Those statues can go to museums to help to teach about their rights and wrongs

Yes museums are a good place to learn stuff. If I see a statue, I Google who it is. I was outside St George's Hall in that there Liverpool looking the statue of benjimen Disraeli. I didn't see any other people doing the same, it was just something to lean against or something for a pigeon to crap on. And I was there ages, and prior to that I drove past it many many many times. That's somebody Id chuck in the river - the person responsible for road signage in Liverpool.

[RollingJ 1,993]

4 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

Yes museums are a good place to learn stuff. If I see a statue, I Google who it is. I was outside St George's Hall in that there Liverpool looking the statue of benjimen Disraeli. I didn't see any other people doing the same, it was just something to lean against or something for a pigeon to crap on. And I was there ages, and prior to that I drove past it many many many times. That's somebody Id chuck in the river - the person responsible for road signage in Liverpool.

@tinfoilhat🤣

[tinfoilhat 11]

15 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The historic statues should remain where they were designed to be erected.  A museum will never show the true beauty of the artwork contained within them. The statue in Bristol was awarded Grade II status in 1977. Grade II listing takes place because the structures or buildings are of special interest that warrant the effort to preserve for future generations. The current generation should not be allowed to decide the future of historic Grade II listed structures such as statues.  Adding an addition plaque containing current day thinking is the correct thing to do rather than giving in to the over the top hysteria created by the media over the last few weeks.

I think you'll find it was moved after 1977. 

[the_bloke 17]

49 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said:

The daily mail was a HUGE fan of Hitler.

That doesn't surprise me at all

[Rockers rule 673]

1 hour ago, Pettytom said:

In which case, you will listen carefully to the many voices who would like the statues of tyrants removed and replaced with something more suitable.

 

Those statues can go to museums to help to teach about their rights and wrongs

Gona be a big Museum and a very lonely one for the only statue that would be left in London.

[PRESLEY 1,222]

1 hour ago, Halibut said:

Do you now accept that Churchill was a racist?

What are you talking about!  You posted Churchill was a Massive Racist and a Great Leader,  I said you can't be a Great Leader if your a Racist infact  in my book, you can't be a great anything,  if your a Racist,  

[the_bloke 17]

We still don't know who should decide if a statue stays or goes.

 

The statue of Colston for example; apparently he was a huge beneficiary to the city, which is why roads were named after him. Charities, hospitals, schools all received vast sums of money (70 grand in the late 1600s was a lot of money) all after he sold his shares in the Royal African Company in 1869 to William, Prince of Orange after only being involved with it for 9 years.  There are charities and schools today that have links to his money.

 

Going back to the comment I made about the Guardian and it's roots in pro-slavery, the consensus is that the newspaper changed it's viewpoint so it's forgiven. Like a politician saying 'sorry'. Did Colston redeem himself through his charitable works?

 

Are people trying to destroy all statues of James II too? He headed the Royal African Company.

[Halibut 12]

55 minutes ago, PRESLEY said:

What are you talking about!  You posted Churchill was a Massive Racist and a Great Leader,  I said you can't be a Great Leader if your a Racist infact  in my book, you can't be a great anything,  if your a Racist,  

So are you saying Churchill wasn't a great leader?

[Minimo 59]

I could understand it better if, for instance, the students who object to the statue of Cecil Rhodes didn't  accept one of the scholarships in his name.

[Pettytom 1]

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

The historic statues should remain where they were designed to be erected.  A museum will never show the true beauty of the artwork contained within them. The statue in Bristol was awarded Grade II status in 1977. Grade II listing takes place because the structures or buildings are of special interest that warrant the effort to preserve for future generations. The current generation should not be allowed to decide the future of historic Grade II listed structures such as statues.  Adding an addition plaque containing current day thinking is the correct thing to do rather than giving in to the over the top hysteria created by the media over the last few weeks.

You might wish to read about the attempts to add a plaque to Colston’s statue.

 

Things move on. Times change. Morality shifts. It seems that these days, most people don’t see slave traders as someone to look up to.