If You Aren't Anti-Fascist. ?

[Halibut 12]

Just now, Michael_W said:

Young men who were sent to and fought in World Wars were not any part of ANTIFA, my grandfather was shot in Belgium, he would never have even heard of ANTIFA, and he certainly wasn't a spoilt middle class brat, he was a Sheffield forge worker, and despite his white skin colour I would hardly have called him privileged, some of you need to get some perspective. ANTIFA are a bunch of idiots who have hijacked the BLM protests and who are responsible for many ordinary people losing their respect for it, black people don't need numpties like them to hijack their cause, social media is now littered with people turning against those who deliberately set out to attack the police, cause trouble and vandalise ..... tell me I'm wrong !

You're wrong.

[janie48 98]

4 hours ago, Rockers rule said:

 There being Nothing Good with either Dictatorships wasn't my question or Halibut's (but he can answer for himself)

The Questions were from my point of view, were Not about the Dictators them self but the actual idea / ideals of either

forms of government rather than the personalities behind either movement.

Both Communism and Fascism went much further back than either Stalin and Hitler.

The Dictatorships that grew from the original reasoning to either movement has somewhat blurred the vision as to the

intentions of both ideals.

If I say both ideals have their merits does that make me a follower of either.

The answer to that is no but some where along the line there must be a way of governing that does actually work for the people.

What we are witnessing with the protesting/ come excuse to destroy what democracy we have is far more than Communism or Fascism. 

 

 

 

 

 

My reason for referring to Stalin and Hitler was to demonstrate their similarities.  

For example, two leaders of different political regimes in the same time period. Both responsible for the mass murder of millions of innocent people. 

To put it it simply, two sides of the same coin. 

 

[ormester 11]

4 hours ago, Michael_W said:

Young men who were sent to and fought in World Wars were not any part of ANTIFA, my grandfather was shot in Belgium, he would never have even heard of ANTIFA, and he certainly wasn't a spoilt middle class brat, he was a Sheffield forge worker, and despite his white skin colour I would hardly have called him privileged, some of you need to get some perspective. ANTIFA are a bunch of idiots who have hijacked the BLM protests and who are responsible for many ordinary people losing their respect for it, black people don't need numpties like them to hijack their cause, social media is now littered with people turning against those who deliberately set out to attack the police, cause trouble and vandalise ..... tell me I'm wrong !

Exactly Micheal it's like talking to brick wall unfortunately  get ready for your either with us or against  us peaceful protest yes but  antifa don't do peaceful 

6 hours ago, Halibut said:

My Grandfather fought in the Egyptian desert for your freedom to call him scum. Would you like to come back and discuss that?

Is that  rioting   my grandad did too antifa are scum no better than the edl etc  you can argue all you want   there's many that will agree . 

[Pettytom 1]

14 hours ago, Michael_W said:

Young men who were sent to and fought in World Wars were not any part of ANTIFA, my grandfather was shot in Belgium, he would never have even heard of ANTIFA, and he certainly wasn't a spoilt middle class brat, he was a Sheffield forge worker, and despite his white skin colour I would hardly have called him privileged, some of you need to get some perspective. ANTIFA are a bunch of idiots who have hijacked the BLM protests and who are responsible for many ordinary people losing their respect for it, black people don't need numpties like them to hijack their cause, social media is now littered with people turning against those who deliberately set out to attack the police, cause trouble and vandalise ..... tell me I'm wrong !

Within the confines of the bar at the Chantry, you are probably not wrong.

 

Elsewhere, the world has turned and I’m afraid that your mates must have blinked and missed it.

 

See you in the 21st century 

[Michael_W 11]

15 hours ago, Halibut said:

You're wrong.

Waste of time fella !

[Rockers rule 673]

20 hours ago, janie48 said:

My reason for referring to Stalin and Hitler was to demonstrate their similarities.  

For example, two leaders of different political regimes in the same time period. Both responsible for the mass murder of millions of innocent people. 

To put it it simply, two sides of the same coin. 

 

Hello Janie48.

exactly my point- very much two sides to the same coin.

Both Communism and Fascism in theory were not  that dissimilar and the original doctrines of both were for the betterment of the people who were to live (and prosper) under either systems.

Unfortunately both ideas were hijacked by despots that did in fact as you quite rightly point out not only  kill those opposed to the either regimes but their own country men as well.

What we are witnessing now with ANTIFA is nothing to do with a desire to protest against what they class as a Fascist State what so ever. The original protest of an unquestionable wrong has been over run by those wanting a revolution of sorts, but as with any revolution you need something in place to replace what you are revolting against. The people who are rioting are not interested in any form of dialogue or have any idea of what outcome they want from their so called protests. Bring the government down and replace it with what? them in charge? people who don't mind attacking the Law, happy to vandalise other peoples property or our way of life? even their looting was only second to their desire to vandalise - yes these are the very people I'm sure we all would just love to have running a country. 

Keep safe.

 

 

[Halibut 12]

13 minutes ago, Rockers rule said:

Hello Janie48.

exactly my point- very much two sides to the same coin.

Both Communism and Fascism in theory were not  that dissimilar and the original doctrines of both were for the betterment of the people who were to live (and prosper) under either systems.

Unfortunately both ideas were hijacked by despots that did in fact as you quite rightly point out not only  kill those opposed to the either regimes but their own country men as well.

What we are witnessing now with ANTIFA is nothing to do with a desire to protest against what they class as a Fascist State what so ever. The original protest of an unquestionable wrong has been over run by those wanting a revolution of sorts, but as with any revolution you need something in place to replace what you are revolting against. The people who are rioting are not interested in any form of dialogue or have any idea of what outcome they want from their so called protests. Bring the government down and replace it with what? them in charge? people who don't mind attacking the Law, happy to vandalise other peoples property or our way of life? even their looting was only second to their desire to vandalise - yes these are the very people I'm sure we all would just love to have running a country. 

Keep safe.

 

 

You're falling into the false dichotomy trap of assuming that anti fascist = pro communist which is, of course, total nonsense.

[Rockers rule 673]

3 minutes ago, Halibut said:

You're falling into the false dichotomy trap of assuming that anti fascist = pro communist which is, of course, total nonsense.

Far from it Mr Halibut - in none of my post's have I shown any reasoning that if you arn't one you are the other.

As for falling into traps - love what you do.

Keep it up.

Rocker.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

For a hundred years there has been groups of fascists in Europe, the UK including Sheffield, sometimes these groups gain some funding, populist figurehead and gain some traction. Targeting ethnicity, culture, religion, art, knowledge and understanding  these groups thrive on provoking a response.

In response to these successive fascist groups a far bigger number of people will gradually emerge to overwhelm them. Antifascist marches been taking place since the end of the Great War.

 

I, like the vast majority of these protesters have never joined anything  vague political. You can tell the ones that have with their similar placards, badges and uniforms, moving through the masses trying to find their pals(followed closely by the media looking for a photo to sell). Meanwhile the vast majority are hanging around waiting , often cold, bored, tired damp and hungry but pleased that they are doing something.

 

Meanwhile the latest organized fascist group are hurling abuse and (empty) cans at their latest "Antifa" enemy opponents. This "enemy" gives as good it gets driving off the fascists into the Harley pub before they get back on the tram to resume their journey. How fitting that the British fascist has to use a foreign word to describe their "enemy".

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Halibut 12]

8 minutes ago, Annie Bynnol said:

 

 

Meanwhile the latest organized fascist group are hurling abuse and (empty) cans at their latest "Antifa" enemy opponents. This "enemy" gives as good it gets driving off the fascists into the Harley pub before they get back on the tram to resume their journey. How fitting that the British fascist has to use a foreign word to describe their "enemy".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who are you talking about here?

[L00b 441]

On 3 June 2020 at 19:30, Halibut said:

(...)

 

If you aren't anti-fascist...are you a lover of fascism? If so, what is it that you think laudable about fascism? The fashion? The jackboots? The totalitarianism? Please share your thoughts.

"if you're not with us, are you against us?"

 

I suppose that is somewhat less fascistic a proposition, than the traditional alternative with a declarative, rather than a question, in the second half of the sentence.

 

But your aggressive posting at replies suggesting that one can be anti-fascist without supporting a militant movement like antifa,  makes one wonder.

 

[Branyy 10]

I was reading about fascism and found that there are three main concepts serving as definition of fascism: 

1. the "fascist negations": anti-liberalism, anti-communism and anti-conservatism.
2. "fascist goals": the creation of a nationalist dictatorship to regulate economic structure and to transform social relations within a modern, self-determined culture, and the expansion of the nation into an empire; and
3. "fascist style": a political aesthetic of romantic symbolism, mass mobilization, a positive view of violence, and promotion of masculinity, youth, and charismatic authoritarian leadership.

Also,  "some attempt to explain fascist demonologies as the expression of irrationally misdirected anger and frustration". Misdirected anger. I've heard that recently, I think in this particular topic...

 

Interesting to see the common traits of seemingly opposing ideologies.