Information, Advice And Discussion About Islam For Non-Muslims

[apelike]

On 19/05/2020 at 20:44, carosio said:

On the two scientists that you mention, I don’t think (after a brief search) that they are truly neutral in their views.

That is a mild way of putting it.

 

This one in particular, Prof. Keith Moore.

 

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dr._Keith_Moore_and_the_Islamic_Additions#Moore.27s_Current_Views

 

I think it's very hard to find any other Scientists that would agree with the Islamic interpretation of how the human is created. What has been described is basically the same as what the ancient Greeks thought including Socrates Hippocrates (460-370 bce) which pre-dates the Quran by many hundreds of years but has been put forward as new scientific data originating in the Quran. But that is also a common trait with Christianity as well as it also borrows from other past religions/Gods. The Jewish and Christian God states that Man was made in his image out of dust and the same God in the Quran states that he was made from an extract of clay so it seems to have borrowed the idea. It could be said that the Jewish Torah indicates the earliest description of cloning as Eve was created (cloned) from Adam's rib. Again that bit of information also forms part of Christianity.

Edited May 20, 2020 by apelike

[Friendly Muslim]

Hi apelike - thanks for contributing. I don't think it is fair to try dismiss the two scientists I quoted. They are both esteemed/award-winning scientists and writers. Perhaps you would like to refute all the scientists at https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/science/scientists.

 

I would be interested to read scientific quotes from Socrates if you can provide any, and then compare them against modern understanding; I've not looked into that before. Otherwise, I hope you would find the dialogue between carosia and myself above, looking at the verses themselves, quite convincing.

[apelike]

53 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Hi apelike - thanks for contributing. I don't think it is fair to try dismiss the two scientists I quoted. They are both esteemed/award-winning scientists and writers. Perhaps you would like to refute all the scientists at https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/science/scientists.

I just ask you to read what  Professor Keith Moore now says in that wiki link and this bit in particular "The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine." Unfortunately the claims that the text in the Quran is scientific is not really true as the few bit there are are so vague that many interpretations can be put on them, a bit like Revelations in the Bible. If it was scientific then it would have better descriptions that were not so cryptic.

 

The above link of yours is not really a valid argument either as it has no data to back it up only bits of text as to what some scientist allegedly said and no references to any books or papers they have produced to back it up. As said Prof Moor thinks otherwise now as well.

 

Quote

I would be interested to read scientific quotes from Socrates if you can provide any, and then compare them against modern understanding; I've not looked into that before. Otherwise, I hope you would find the dialogue between carosia and myself above, looking at the verses themselves, quite convincing.

My apologies as I actually meant Hippocrates and not Socrates so just amended it. Been doing a lot of Greek history lately... 

 

As far as I can tell it is all a matter of belief anyway so it's not necessary to use science to prove anything but by providing some very dodgy interpretations of what some bits of text means does not help people understand and can only confuse.

Edited May 20, 2020 by apelike

[Friendly Muslim]

16 minutes ago, apelike said:

My apologies as I actually meant Hippocrates and not Socrates so just amended it. Been doing a lot of Greek history lately... 

 

As far as I can tell it is all a matter of belief anyway so it's not necessary to use science to prove anything but by providing some very dodgy interpretations of what some bits of text means does not help people understand and can only confuse.

Hi again apelike - trying to cite the Greeks, or any other previous civilisations, is not sufficient without actual references. The quotes I have read in the past have not come anywhere near to the level of accuracy, precision and functionality of the verses of the Holy Quran (and I hope carosio agrees too). 

 

As I stated in my first post on the Holy Quran and modern science, there are many more verses that are very convincing too. The key think is to highlight, once again, is that Islam is based on evidence and  rationality.

 

Once you understand that - the rest of Islam is there for you to enjoy and share...for us all to enjoy and share; it is a universal and inclusive religion!

 

Thanks again.

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Friendly Muslim

[Friendly Muslim]

6 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Once you understand that - the rest of Islam is there for you to enjoy and share...for us all to enjoy and share; it is a universal and inclusive religion!

Hi Everybody,

 

Going back to Ramadhan, we are in the final and most special days and nights of this lunar month now. Once again, let's remember the less fortunate around the world and anyone locally who be struggling with the current lockdown.

 

I'll hopefully do a post on another pillar of Islam when Ramadhan finishes, but in the meantime, let's all pray for ease and peace for everyone.

 

Thanks everyone.

[apelike]

21 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Hi again apelike - trying to cite the Greeks, or any other previous civilisations, is not sufficient without actual references. The quotes I have read in the past have not come anywhere near to the level of accuracy, precision and functionality of the verses of the Holy Quran (and I hope carosio agrees too). 

But the references you have also provided to make a claim about scientific accuracy are not references just propaganda and the link to the scientists page is just one example. That's why I ask for data, references, books or papers they have written to back up their claims. The claims so far have come nowhere near to being accurate to a scientific level and that is what I am stating. Even one of the scientists you mentioned has now stated the same so forgive me if I disagree.

 

21 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

As I stated in my first post on the Holy Quran and modern science, there are many more verses that are very convincing too. The key think is to highlight, once again, is that Islam is based on evidence and  rationality.

Like other religions before it it is neither rational or based on evidence but purely based on belief which is fine if that is what you want. Trying to make out it is based on science is not necessary when it is about belief. Having said that I look forward to more science based facts from you.

 

[carosio]

As Apelike says, trying to promote a religion through science references is, at least, tenuous and problematic in today's scientific world. I do believe that there are many more appropriate aspects of the religion which can be appealing to enquirers.

 

Despite all these "facts" (even if true), they have never been a source of consultation by later scientists in their quests for knowledge and discoveries; that has been accomplished from other sources. Belief in a religion in itself though has given inspiration to enquiring minds.

[Friendly Muslim]

carosio,

 

I welcome your comments. Ultimately, I agree Islam is about belief, but I hope we can broadly agree, partially based on the evidence-based debate that we have undertaken in the last few days, that Islam is certainly not about 'blind-belief'.

 

I have indeed set up this topic to inspire enquirers, and I hope to return now to providing information on the pillars and concepts of Islam.

 

How about yourself? What is your understanding of the concept of God and do you belive in God?  I was thinking of doing a post on 'Who is Allah?' because I imagine that most members on here are probably unaware/misinformed about the concept of God in Islam. Do you think that would be a good place to start?  

[carosio]

6 hours ago, Friendly Muslim said:

 

How about yourself? What is your understanding of the concept of God and do you belive in God?  I was thinking of doing a post on 'Who is Allah?' because I imagine that most members on here are probably unaware/misinformed about the concept of God in Islam. Do you think that would be a good place to start?  

No, I don't believe in God or gods as depicted in the major religions.

 

We have always wondered what is the origin of life, matter and the universe and what becomes of us after death; perhaps one day it will be discovered but until then (for many of us), a God will fill the gap. In other words, if we believe  everything was created by a higher intelligence, problem solved!

 

As for your proposed new post on Allah please proceed, but be prepared to be subjected to awkward questioning as post about religion attract more sceptics than potential recruits, so to speak!

[bendix]

I don’t think FM is trying to recruit anyone carosio.  People find their own way to things. I think he or she is just here to discuss and hopefully shed some light and in the process blow away some of the silly prejudices.