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Posted (edited)

On the two scientists that you mention, I don’t think (after a brief search) that they are truly neutral in their views.

 

The Muslim scientists of the medieval period contributed greatly to science, at least until the Enlightenment.  Also it is also claimed (as you do) that their religion afforded them a more rational approach to scientific study and thought than their Christian contemporaries in the West who were hamstrung with church doctrine.

 

One of the greatest, if not THE greatest theory ever devised was by a man who, despite being steeped in the Christian culture and thinking of his time, let rational thinking and the evidence prevail over doctrinal beliefs, and that was Charles Darwin.

 

To add:  From the info I have found so far, the eye starts to develop at day 21/22, slightly before the inner ear.

Edited by carosio

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Not at all interested in Islam, but curious as to what the OP’s personal experience (as a human being) of the religion is?

 

For me, I think I would struggle with any kind of blind obedience to any doctrine. In my experience all systems (and especially the people who govern them) are flawed to a degree; so I like (as best I can) to keep a discerning mind.

 

Does Islam encourage you do be discerning, to trust yourself and your own judgement? What happens if you feel a conflict between a particular aspect of your religion, and your own inner sense of rightness?

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On 19/05/2020 at 10:29, Friendly Muslim said:

Take the following verse from the Holy Quran (this is Verse 14 of Chapter 23) where the creation of the human is discussed:

 

“Then We created from the tiny drop an 'alaqah' (leech-like structure); then We created from the alaqah a 'mudghah' (chewed-shaped lump); then We created from the ‘mudghah’ bones; then We covered the bones with flesh...”

 

The two most clear-cut words above are ‘alaqah’ (a leech-like structure that clings) and ‘mudgah’ (which literally means something that has been chewed). Modern embryologists have confirmed this is how the embryo develops in terms of its outward appearance; it is initially long and thin, clinging to the endometrium of the uterus, and then later develops somites, which look like teeth marks.

 

The verse above then remarkably progresses to clearly discuss further stages of the embryo’s development; stating that the ‘chewed lump’ develops into bones and these are then covered in flesh. This additional staging has also been confirmed by modern embryologists.

 

For me, the verse above could not have been more clearer or more functional.

 

The Holy Quran also states, in other places (Verse 9 of Chapter 32, for example) that Allah “...created for you (the senses of) hearing, sight and deduction”. Again, modern embryologists have confirmed that the primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes in the embryo, and the ability to deduce and comprehend develops last.

As I predicted (and cautioned you against) you have gone down the route trying to prove scripture by showing it contains divine revelation.

 

Also as I predicted you have fallen at the first hurdle as flesh does not clothe bones, bones are made as the baby develops.

 

By your own terms, this mistake and doubtless many others in the Koran prove that the Koran is not of divine origin and is simply the work of a man of his time.

 

Cue undignified attempts to claim ambiguity in the text allows different interpretations...

 

As for claiming a bit of scripture with the words “...created for you (the senses of) hearing, sight and deduction”, is a divine prediction about the order of embryonic development, then already you are clutching at undignified straws.

 

I would think the local biologist who you say was rendered speechless by this was just being polite.

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1 hour ago, Norbert said:

Also as I predicted you have fallen at the first hurdle as flesh does not clothe bones, bones are made as the baby develops.

Hi Norbert - Thanks for looking into this, but your statement above does not add up at all. The Holy Quran clearly states that bones form first and are then covered in flesh. To be honest, this is probably the most obvious part of the cycle - I don't see any errors within my quoted verse.

 

What about the rest of the scientific statements - the much more specific ones? They could not have been guessed, as modern sciecne proves. 

 

Also, you intially wrote off Islam citing modern 'biology' and science, and now that I have demonstrated that Islam and modern science are compatible, you are stating this is an 'undignified attempt'. I really do not see why this is undignified at all. 

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As  Friendly Muslim invited forumers to do their own research to confirm what is being claimed, I did. I'm sorry if this doesn't concur with what is written in the Quran, I'm simply showing what the orthodox view on skeletal development is, which is summarized here:     https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/fetal-bones-skeletal-system/

 

"The skeletal structure that will one day support your baby’s whole body starts out as flexible cartilage that gradually ossifies (or becomes hard bone) as your little one absorbs more calcium from you during the pregnancy

 

Month 1: The embryo develops three layers

 

Soon after conception, the embryo differentiates into three layers of cells. The mesoderm, or middle layer, will develop into your baby’s bones – as well as her heart muscles, kidneys and sex organs. The inner layer (called the endoderm) becomes your baby's digestive system, liver and lungs. And the ectoderm, or outer layer, develops into the nervous system, hair, skin and eyes.

 

Month 2: The start of arms and legs

Big changes are happening to your little embryo. It’s starting to develop a clavicle and parts of a backbone, for starters, while the neural tube forms – the source for parts of the nervous system as well as the spine and skull.

By about week 6 of pregnancy, your little bean is also sprouting arm buds as the legs follow suit. About the only thing that isn’t growing is its tadpole-like tail; that’s shrinking and will eventually disappear — leaving only the tailbone at the base of the spine."

 

 

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carosia - wow - thanks so much for looking into this.

 

Look at what the Holy Quran says (Chapter 39, Verse 6):

 

"...He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness. Such is Allah your Lord. His is the kingdom. La ilaha illa Huwa (There is no God except Him). How then are you turned away."

 

I've literally just copied and pasted that translation from a well-respected commentary. It matches what you have found perfectly. That's amazing!

 

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To all my friends on here who may be reading this thread, particularly contributors, I wish you all guidance, well-being and happiness!

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Posted (edited)
On 19/05/2020 at 20:44, carosio said:

On the two scientists that you mention, I don’t think (after a brief search) that they are truly neutral in their views.

That is a mild way of putting it.

 

This one in particular, Prof. Keith Moore.

 

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dr._Keith_Moore_and_the_Islamic_Additions#Moore.27s_Current_Views

 

I think it's very hard to find any other Scientists that would agree with the Islamic interpretation of how the human is created. What has been described is basically the same as what the ancient Greeks thought including Socrates Hippocrates (460-370 bce) which pre-dates the Quran by many hundreds of years but has been put forward as new scientific data originating in the Quran. But that is also a common trait with Christianity as well as it also borrows from other past religions/Gods. The Jewish and Christian God states that Man was made in his image out of dust and the same God in the Quran states that he was made from an extract of clay so it seems to have borrowed the idea. It could be said that the Jewish Torah indicates the earliest description of cloning as Eve was created (cloned) from Adam's rib. Again that bit of information also forms part of Christianity.

Edited by apelike

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Hi apelike - thanks for contributing. I don't think it is fair to try dismiss the two scientists I quoted. They are both esteemed/award-winning scientists and writers. Perhaps you would like to refute all the scientists at https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/science/scientists.

 

I would be interested to read scientific quotes from Socrates if you can provide any, and then compare them against modern understanding; I've not looked into that before. Otherwise, I hope you would find the dialogue between carosia and myself above, looking at the verses themselves, quite convincing.

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Hi apelike - thanks for contributing. I don't think it is fair to try dismiss the two scientists I quoted. They are both esteemed/award-winning scientists and writers. Perhaps you would like to refute all the scientists at https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/science/scientists.

I just ask you to read what  Professor Keith Moore now says in that wiki link and this bit in particular "The result of Moore's and Zindani's collaboration is not an academic book and subsequent editions omit and contradict the "Islamic additions". Reverting back to his previous description, they basically admit that the embryology in the Qur'an is a repetition of Greek and Indian medicine." Unfortunately the claims that the text in the Quran is scientific is not really true as the few bit there are are so vague that many interpretations can be put on them, a bit like Revelations in the Bible. If it was scientific then it would have better descriptions that were not so cryptic.

 

The above link of yours is not really a valid argument either as it has no data to back it up only bits of text as to what some scientist allegedly said and no references to any books or papers they have produced to back it up. As said Prof Moor thinks otherwise now as well.

 

Quote

I would be interested to read scientific quotes from Socrates if you can provide any, and then compare them against modern understanding; I've not looked into that before. Otherwise, I hope you would find the dialogue between carosia and myself above, looking at the verses themselves, quite convincing.

My apologies as I actually meant Hippocrates and not Socrates so just amended it. Been doing a lot of Greek history lately... :)

 

As far as I can tell it is all a matter of belief anyway so it's not necessary to use science to prove anything but by providing some very dodgy interpretations of what some bits of text means does not help people understand and can only confuse.

Edited by apelike

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, apelike said:

My apologies as I actually meant Hippocrates and not Socrates so just amended it. Been doing a lot of Greek history lately... 

 

As far as I can tell it is all a matter of belief anyway so it's not necessary to use science to prove anything but by providing some very dodgy interpretations of what some bits of text means does not help people understand and can only confuse.

Hi again apelike - trying to cite the Greeks, or any other previous civilisations, is not sufficient without actual references. The quotes I have read in the past have not come anywhere near to the level of accuracy, precision and functionality of the verses of the Holy Quran (and I hope carosio agrees too). 

 

As I stated in my first post on the Holy Quran and modern science, there are many more verses that are very convincing too. The key think is to highlight, once again, is that Islam is based on evidence and  rationality.

 

Once you understand that - the rest of Islam is there for you to enjoy and share...for us all to enjoy and share; it is a universal and inclusive religion!

 

Thanks again.

 

Edited by Friendly Muslim

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6 minutes ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Once you understand that - the rest of Islam is there for you to enjoy and share...for us all to enjoy and share; it is a universal and inclusive religion!

Hi Everybody,

 

Going back to Ramadhan, we are in the final and most special days and nights of this lunar month now. Once again, let's remember the less fortunate around the world and anyone locally who be struggling with the current lockdown.

 

I'll hopefully do a post on another pillar of Islam when Ramadhan finishes, but in the meantime, let's all pray for ease and peace for everyone.

 

Thanks everyone.

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