Information, Advice And Discussion About Islam For Non-Muslims

[carosio]

On the 4 examples that you have given, can you then show us the relevant extracts from the quran which you claim has advanced scientific understanding?

[Norbert]

6 hours ago, Friendly Muslim said:

Hi Norbert, thanks for you posts. I appreciate it can initially sound 'strange', rather than 'amazing', when you first hear such statements, particularly when you do not have enough context. So apologies from me for not providing enough background and going straight into the more religoius aspects of Ramadhan.

 

Islam is a an entirely rational religion and entirely evidence-based. I delivered a Zoom presentation last weekend, to friends, where I outlined several verses of the Holy Quran that inherently contain scientific information to a level that is as advanced as the understanding of modern experts, if not more. In many cases, modern leaders in their respective scientific fields and disciplines have reviewed the verses and confirmed that they conform to modern scientific understanding. I generally use this as evidence to illustrate that the Holy Quran is divinely inspired.

 

The specific topics I touched upon in my recent presentation are as as follows:

• Anatomical staging of the developing human embryo.
• Development of the faculties of hearing and sight in the developing human embryo.
• Structural geology and orography of the embedded structure of mountains.
• Chemical oceanography of certain local and global masses of water.

I can elaborate further or at least give you 'my favourite examples' if you or anyone else on here is interested. I do hope you would find that information interesting and enjoyable.

I think it’s a losing game trying to justify the whole of a belief system by claiming it contains divinely inspired knowledge.

 

Primarily because one mistake and the whole house comes tumbling down.

 

Adherents tie themselves in knots claiming one fact is revealed but another is poetic allegory when it goes against what we know.

 

I don't think it's a fruitful path for us to follow, and it's an undignified way to shore up a religion imho.

[Friendly Muslim]

Hello carsio and CaptainSwing – thanks for your interest. I’ll be happy to elaborate; I’ll start with my ‘favourite example’ if you don’t mind.

 

Hello again Norbert – thanks to you too. Again, I really should provide some context to elaborate on the significance of the science in the Holy Quran. I also don’t think it is ‘undignified’ for one to rationally explain why they believe in a religion.

 

As for background, the significance of the inherent science contained within the Holy Quran can be understood if you accept the following, well-established historical fact; the entire text of the Holy Quran has never been altered since the 7th Century. We have the first fully-compiled copies available dating back to that time, and millions of people (even today) have memorised the entire text, word-for word, and recite it to one another.

 

The question, then, is simply about its origin. Of course, Muslims believe the Author of the Holy Quran is Allah (or God) Himself. And Muslims assert that modern science proves this.

 

Take the following verse from the Holy Quran (this is Verse 14 of Chapter 23) where the creation of the human is discussed:

 

“Then We created from the tiny drop an 'alaqah' (leech-like structure); then We created from the alaqah a 'mudghah' (chewed-shaped lump); then We created from the ‘mudghah’ bones; then We covered the bones with flesh...”

 

The two most clear-cut words above are ‘alaqah’ (a leech-like structure that clings) and ‘mudgah’ (which literally means something that has been chewed). Modern embryologists have confirmed this is how the embryo develops in terms of its outward appearance; it is initially long and thin, clinging to the endometrium of the uterus, and then later develops somites, which look like teeth marks.

 

The verse above then remarkably progresses to clearly discuss further stages of the embryo’s development; stating that the ‘chewed lump’ develops into bones and these are then covered in flesh. This additional staging has also been confirmed by modern embryologists.

 

For me, the verse above could not have been more clearer or more functional.

 

The Holy Quran also states, in other places (Verse 9 of Chapter 32, for example) that Allah “...created for you (the senses of) hearing, sight and deduction”. Again, modern embryologists have confirmed that the primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes in the embryo, and the ability to deduce and comprehend develops last.

 

By way of scientific references, I’m keen for you to research yourselves, but in case you would like sources, then two respected, un-biased personalities who have confirmed the accuracy of the two verses above are Prof. Keith Moore and Dr Maurice Bucaille. Closer to home, I also showed the verses above to a local biologist in Sheffield recently (who was non-Muslim, and therefore un-biased) and she was lost for words.

 

I wouldn’t want to elongate this post, but the question and conundrum I am posing is, how could a single person or a group of people (however powerful you may wish to correctly or incorrectly claim they were) have known these scientific facts, among others, in the 7th Century?

 

Muslims, of course, believe these verses are from Allah (or God) who obviously knows all this because he is our Creator. No other plausible explanation has ever been provided to me, which therefore rationalises my belief in Islam.

[carosio]

On the two scientists that you mention, I don’t think (after a brief search) that they are truly neutral in their views.

 

The Muslim scientists of the medieval period contributed greatly to science, at least until the Enlightenment.  Also it is also claimed (as you do) that their religion afforded them a more rational approach to scientific study and thought than their Christian contemporaries in the West who were hamstrung with church doctrine.

 

One of the greatest, if not THE greatest theory ever devised was by a man who, despite being steeped in the Christian culture and thinking of his time, let rational thinking and the evidence prevail over doctrinal beliefs, and that was Charles Darwin.

 

To add:  From the info I have found so far, the eye starts to develop at day 21/22, slightly before the inner ear.

Edited May 20, 2020 by carosio

[Waldo]

Not at all interested in Islam, but curious as to what the OP’s personal experience (as a human being) of the religion is?

 

For me, I think I would struggle with any kind of blind obedience to any doctrine. In my experience all systems (and especially the people who govern them) are flawed to a degree; so I like (as best I can) to keep a discerning mind.

 

Does Islam encourage you do be discerning, to trust yourself and your own judgement? What happens if you feel a conflict between a particular aspect of your religion, and your own inner sense of rightness?

[Norbert]

On 19/05/2020 at 10:29, Friendly Muslim said:

Take the following verse from the Holy Quran (this is Verse 14 of Chapter 23) where the creation of the human is discussed:

 

“Then We created from the tiny drop an 'alaqah' (leech-like structure); then We created from the alaqah a 'mudghah' (chewed-shaped lump); then We created from the ‘mudghah’ bones; then We covered the bones with flesh...”

 

The two most clear-cut words above are ‘alaqah’ (a leech-like structure that clings) and ‘mudgah’ (which literally means something that has been chewed). Modern embryologists have confirmed this is how the embryo develops in terms of its outward appearance; it is initially long and thin, clinging to the endometrium of the uterus, and then later develops somites, which look like teeth marks.

 

The verse above then remarkably progresses to clearly discuss further stages of the embryo’s development; stating that the ‘chewed lump’ develops into bones and these are then covered in flesh. This additional staging has also been confirmed by modern embryologists.

 

For me, the verse above could not have been more clearer or more functional.

 

The Holy Quran also states, in other places (Verse 9 of Chapter 32, for example) that Allah “...created for you (the senses of) hearing, sight and deduction”. Again, modern embryologists have confirmed that the primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes in the embryo, and the ability to deduce and comprehend develops last.

As I predicted (and cautioned you against) you have gone down the route trying to prove scripture by showing it contains divine revelation.

 

Also as I predicted you have fallen at the first hurdle as flesh does not clothe bones, bones are made as the baby develops.

 

By your own terms, this mistake and doubtless many others in the Koran prove that the Koran is not of divine origin and is simply the work of a man of his time.

 

Cue undignified attempts to claim ambiguity in the text allows different interpretations...

 

As for claiming a bit of scripture with the words “...created for you (the senses of) hearing, sight and deduction”, is a divine prediction about the order of embryonic development, then already you are clutching at undignified straws.

 

I would think the local biologist who you say was rendered speechless by this was just being polite.

[Friendly Muslim]

1 hour ago, Norbert said:

Also as I predicted you have fallen at the first hurdle as flesh does not clothe bones, bones are made as the baby develops.

Hi Norbert - Thanks for looking into this, but your statement above does not add up at all. The Holy Quran clearly states that bones form first and are then covered in flesh. To be honest, this is probably the most obvious part of the cycle - I don't see any errors within my quoted verse.

 

What about the rest of the scientific statements - the much more specific ones? They could not have been guessed, as modern sciecne proves. 

 

Also, you intially wrote off Islam citing modern 'biology' and science, and now that I have demonstrated that Islam and modern science are compatible, you are stating this is an 'undignified attempt'. I really do not see why this is undignified at all. 

[carosio]

As  Friendly Muslim invited forumers to do their own research to confirm what is being claimed, I did. I'm sorry if this doesn't concur with what is written in the Quran, I'm simply showing what the orthodox view on skeletal development is, which is summarized here:     https://www.whattoexpect.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/fetal-bones-skeletal-system/

 

"The skeletal structure that will one day support your baby’s whole body starts out as flexible cartilage that gradually ossifies (or becomes hard bone) as your little one absorbs more calcium from you during the pregnancy

 

Month 1: The embryo develops three layers

 

Soon after conception, the embryo differentiates into three layers of cells. The mesoderm, or middle layer, will develop into your baby’s bones – as well as her heart muscles, kidneys and sex organs. The inner layer (called the endoderm) becomes your baby's digestive system, liver and lungs. And the ectoderm, or outer layer, develops into the nervous system, hair, skin and eyes.

 

Month 2: The start of arms and legs

Big changes are happening to your little embryo. It’s starting to develop a clavicle and parts of a backbone, for starters, while the neural tube forms – the source for parts of the nervous system as well as the spine and skull.

By about week 6 of pregnancy, your little bean is also sprouting arm buds as the legs follow suit. About the only thing that isn’t growing is its tadpole-like tail; that’s shrinking and will eventually disappear — leaving only the tailbone at the base of the spine."

 

 

[Friendly Muslim]

carosia - wow - thanks so much for looking into this.

 

Look at what the Holy Quran says (Chapter 39, Verse 6):

 

"...He creates you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation in three veils of darkness. Such is Allah your Lord. His is the kingdom. La ilaha illa Huwa (There is no God except Him). How then are you turned away."

 

I've literally just copied and pasted that translation from a well-respected commentary. It matches what you have found perfectly. That's amazing!

 

[Friendly Muslim]

To all my friends on here who may be reading this thread, particularly contributors, I wish you all guidance, well-being and happiness!