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1 hour ago, bendix said:

It’s a timing issue.  Islam is nothing more than the word of God. It was sent down over history to various prophets including Jesus and Moses.  

Sent down from where though. Its seems that this God although being omnipotent was not happy with his first choice of Judaism or his second Christianity so had to try again with Islam.

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On 03/08/2020 at 19:24, Friendly Muslim said:

So as Musims, we believe in Allah as the One True God. We then believe that Allah sent many messengers into the world to guide mankind to Allah.  

Me bold... What I would ask in linking my previous post is if you think Allah is the One True God isn't the same God of the Jews and Christians also the One True God as well?

Edited by apelike

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On 03/08/2020 at 12:35, woolyhead said:

The five pillars of wisdom says Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. This seems to leave Jesus out in the cold, doesn't it.  Why isn't Allah just one of the messengers of God and Jesus another messenger of god?

Sorry, I made an obvious mistake. What I meant was Why isn't Muhammed just one of the messengers and Jesus another? 

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33 minutes ago, woolyhead said:

Sorry, I made an obvious mistake. What I meant was Why isn't Muhammed just one of the messengers and Jesus another? 

Jesus is a messenger of God in Islam, son of Mary.

 

He's mentioned 25 times in the Quran.

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1 hour ago, Mr Fisk said:

Jesus is a messenger of God in Islam, son of Mary.

 

He's mentioned 25 times in the Quran.

But Jesus was also the Son of God and not just a messenger so it again gets down to the fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same God. If that is so then each must also share the same True God.

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51 minutes ago, apelike said:

But Jesus was also the Son of God and not just a messenger so it again gets down to the fact that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same God. If that is so then each must also share the same True God.

I'm sure FM will detail further and answer your earlier posts.

 

But as I understand, Jesus was never son of God or claimed it.

 

Hence part of your answer to the post you made about the other religions, why send Islam after Judaism and Christianity, is THE reason - i.e  the former had revelations but corrupted these.

 

Jesus never said he was son of God, worshipped 'the father' who is God of Moses and Muhammad- only one.

 

I found during my time talking to persons who left Christianity and became atheist, many did so mainly due to the confusion over the trinity/ Christianity-  unable to give clear explanations or answers.

 

I believe the ultimate message was always to believe in one God  from time immemol

 

In addition there are numerous passages in the Bible where one can ascertain that Jesus did not claim he was God or even God-like.

 

The writers of the gospels never believed he was anything more than a messenger.

 

Even when a  learned man (of the Law of Moses)  asked Jesus  what was the best commandment/ most important, Jesus replied:

 

  ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.  Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28-30).

 

 

Edited by Mr Fisk
Addition

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21 minutes ago, Mr Fisk said:

I'm sure FM will detail further and answer your earlier posts.

 

But as I understand, Jesus was never son of God or claimed it.

 

 

Claimed by John Wayne playing a Roman soldier in the 1965 film "The Greatest Story Ever Told" 😎

 

 

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On 03/08/2020 at 19:14, Friendly Muslim said:

Waldo,

 

I do not want to be perceived to be criticising Saudi Arabia or China - I would be falling into the age-old 'religion to politics to power' trap, which is the real element that most non-religous people dislike (as opposed to religion itself).

 

However, you are actually inadvertantly making a counter-argument that supports what I stated above. You claim Saudi Arabia and China/CCP have strong similarities in their approach to governing their countries and people. The first country is deeply religous while the second is strongly against religion. So, my point is that, any failings on their respective parts have nothing to do with religion/Islam.

What do you mean by, "religion to politics to power"? How do you know that's what most people dislike about religion, and also, as you stress 'non-religious' people dislike this element of religion, are you suggesting that religious people have no problem with that particular element of religion? Surely, if it's something that is corrosive to humanity as a whole, most people (religious or otherwise) would dislike it?

 

Also, why be overly concerned with how you appear to others (you said "I do not want to be perceived to be ...")? Should a person not be authentic and true to themselves, first and foremost, without regard to appearances? Be authentic and let people see you as you are.

 

There is a lot I dislike about religion. I believe it encourages unquestioning adherence to dogma and ritual, and eschews self-introspection, self-trust, intellectual honesty etc. A person can generally, not pick and choose ... "I see value in this element of my religion, but this other thing here that is prescribed by my region, is a bunch of nonsense". A religious person generally can't do that, they have to accept it all, wholesale, because they have sacrificed their integrity and intellectual honesty, on the alter of group-think (internal group pressure to think a certain way). This is a group dynamic that is of course not limited to religious groups.

 

The point I'm making about China and SA, it's more a reflection of human nature I guess. How I see it, people are driven by fear to control things, in their life, to control other people, accumulate resources, influence, power, etc. This aspect of human nature manifests itself pretty much anywhere human beings form organisations. So, as you encourage obedience within your religion; you also encourage obedience to corrupting influences within it.

 

Lastly, please don't take anything I've said as any kind of attack on you personally. I generally don't like religion; that doesn't mean I dislike or have a problem with religious people.

Edited by Waldo

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2 hours ago, Waldo said:

What do you mean by, "religion to politics to power"? How do you know that's what most people dislike about religion, and also, as you stress 'non-religious' people dislike this element of religion, are you suggesting that religious people have no problem with that particular element of religion? Surely, if it's something that is corrosive to humanity as a whole, most people (religious or otherwise) would dislike it?

 

Also, why be overly concerned with how you appear to others (you said "I do not want to be perceived to be ...")? Should a person not be authentic and true to themselves, first and foremost, without regard to appearances? Be authentic and let people see you as you are.

 

There is a lot I dislike about religion. I believe it encourages unquestioning adherence to dogma and ritual, and eschews self-introspection, self-trust, intellectual honesty etc. A person can generally, not pick and choose ... "I see value in this element of my religion, but this other thing here that is prescribed by my region, is a bunch of nonsense". A religious person generally can't do that, they have to accept it all, wholesale, because they have sacrificed their integrity and intellectual honesty, on the alter of group-think (internal group pressure to think a certain way). This is a group dynamic that is of course not limited to religious groups.

 

The point I'm making about China and SA, it's more a reflection of human nature I guess. How I see it, people are driven by fear to control things, in their life, to control other people, accumulate resources, influence, power, etc. This aspect of human nature manifests itself pretty much anywhere human beings form organisations. So, as you encourage obedience within your religion; you also encourage obedience to corrupting influences within it.

 

Lastly, please don't take anything I've said as any kind of attack on you personally. I generally don't like religion; that doesn't mean I dislike or have a problem with religious people.

I can only agree, I believe everyone should have religious freedom and I will follow mine- atheism. The problem for all of us is when religious doctrine conflicts with morality, which seems to be a difficult balancing act for all religions 

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9 hours ago, Waldo said:

What do you mean by, "religion to politics to power"? How do you know that's what most people dislike about religion, and also, as you stress 'non-religious' people dislike this element of religion, are you suggesting that religious people have no problem with that particular element of religion? Surely, if it's something that is corrosive to humanity as a whole, most people (religious or otherwise) would dislike it?

 

Also, why be overly concerned with how you appear to others (you said "I do not want to be perceived to be ...")? Should a person not be authentic and true to themselves, first and foremost, without regard to appearances? Be authentic and let people see you as you are.

 

There is a lot I dislike about religion. I believe it encourages unquestioning adherence to dogma and ritual, and eschews self-introspection, self-trust, intellectual honesty etc. A person can generally, not pick and choose ... "I see value in this element of my religion, but this other thing here that is prescribed by my region, is a bunch of nonsense". A religious person generally can't do that, they have to accept it all, wholesale, because they have sacrificed their integrity and intellectual honesty, on the alter of group-think (internal group pressure to think a certain way). This is a group dynamic that is of course not limited to religious groups.

 

The point I'm making about China and SA, it's more a reflection of human nature I guess. How I see it, people are driven by fear to control things, in their life, to control other people, accumulate resources, influence, power, etc. This aspect of human nature manifests itself pretty much anywhere human beings form organisations. So, as you encourage obedience within your religion; you also encourage obedience to corrupting influences within it.

 

Lastly, please don't take anything I've said as any kind of attack on you personally. I generally don't like religion; that doesn't mean I dislike or have a problem with religious people.

I don't think Friendly Muslim was conveying that.

 

I agree that there are many people who leave or do not adhere to  aspects of a religion.  Then that is dishonesty that is down to the individual or people- when you shift that to politics/ governments/ ruler ships (like KSA) then usually its the power of corruption.

 

Power corrupts people and Muslim or 'X' religion, can lead these leaders to do totally opposite to what their religion may say.

The corruption can spread to the masses but then you will always have groups wanting to stand up for a more righteous leadership, hence you then get rebellions.

 

Pointing to China today, the government denies it has concentration camps holding minority Muslims, yet many reports and research shows they clearly do.

 

Saudi Arabia under its rulership doesn't fully conform to the Quranic teachings that should include treatment of people, both men and women, as being equal.

 

There should be religious freedom in my opinion and if I recall, this is something Islam gives, "there is no compulsion in religion".

 

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Mr Fisk, you said Jesus is A messenger of God in Islam, son of Mary. Earlier you said that Muhammed is THE messenger of Allah. Why the subtle differences in your uses between A and THE?

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2 hours ago, woolyhead said:

Mr Fisk, you said Jesus is A messenger of God in Islam, son of Mary. Earlier you said that Muhammed is THE messenger of Allah. Why the subtle differences in your uses between A and THE?

Woolhead- I'm trying to follow what you're trying to say but just to point out I had said:

 

Allah is God

Jesus was a messenger- his god was Allah/ Elohim 

 

All the same.

 

Again , once FM is back online he can expand but just to outline from my knowledge, there is NO difference between Muhammad and Jesus- both were messengers of God.

 

Muslims believe Muhammad was the last line  of messengers sent over a long, long period of time .

 

 

 

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