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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

Groose

Let me make this perfectly clear - any personal attacks will get you a suspension. The moderating team is not going to continually issue warnings. If you cannot remain civil and post within forum rules then do not bother to contribute.

 

In addition to remoaner we are also not going to allow the use of libdums or liebore - if you cannot behave like adults and post without recourse to these childish insults then please refrain from posting. If you have a problem with this then you all know where the helpdesk is. 

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1 hour ago, L00b said:

I'm sure Zimbabwean onions would be perfectly fine for consumption, and they'd likely be cheaper to produce than Spanish ones :)

 

Since that hypothetical zero tariff base would apply to onions from <wherever> (WTO MFN says), then it'd be down to wether Tesco & the like can get them landed in the UK from Zimbabwe, cheap enough to maintain that cost differential, or whether Spanish (or still others) are still in with a shout after freight is factored in (plus the importing red tape: don't forget that new importing red tape, 10% or 0% tariffs irrespective...someone's got to pay for it, and it won't Spaniards or Zimbabwean onion producers).

 

Given that free-for-all access to UK food shelves granted to <the world> under the logic of your post, then may the most competitive producers of fresh foodstuffs win, indeed.

 

But that state aid thing, about making EV batteries <or whatever> with a forest's worth of taxpayer money trees? Still no ;)

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

 

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Tony said:

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

Why does this particular value judgement matter to Tesco's purchasing director of the example?

 

His/her remit is to secure the best onion supply for maximising Tesco's profit, all other considerations being equal: whether that supply is domestic or foreign and, if foreign, from inside or outside any protectionist environment, EU or not, should surely be irrelevant.

 

No?

50 minutes ago, Tony said:

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

Is that inspired by the same sentiment, as the UK recently wanted the EU to accept Japanese-made and Turkish-made automotive parts in UK-assembled cars,  as counting towards the UK country-of-origin percentage?

 

;)

 

 

Edited by L00b

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1. I was referring to you and I understanding enough to make a value judgement, not Tesco's buyers.

 

2. Not at all. Complex goods are a little different but it's a reasonable thing to make available to the end consumer. Engine made in Dagenham, bodywork from Poland, assembled in Spain. After all, these days "Japanese" cars are made in Sunderland and Derby while "English" Range Rovers are build in Latvia (ISTR) and consumers decide accordingly. Onions are more straightforward and it's only extending the Red Tractor scheme beyond the goods that aren't UK produce.

 

Just let the consumer decide if it important to them. Why wouldn't you? 

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

The thrust of the Brexit argument is, cheap, cheap and cheap; not more costs and higher standards.

I prefer high standards myself.

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Cheap is one option of many.  If Zim' farmers can get the onions that consumers like to Immingham for less money than Spanish farmers, the consumer wins. Cheap comes from choice and choice is for the consumer to decide, not the producer or their minders. 

 

This oversimplified point seems a bit too obvious, but there we have it. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tony said:

1. I was referring to you and I understanding enough to make a value judgement, not Tesco's buyers.

 

2. Not at all. Complex goods are a little different but it's a reasonable thing to make available to the end consumer. Engine made in Dagenham, bodywork from Poland, assembled in Spain. After all, these days "Japanese" cars are made in Sunderland and Derby while "English" Range Rovers are build in Latvia (ISTR) and consumers decide accordingly. Onions are more straightforward and it's only extending the Red Tractor scheme beyond the goods that aren't UK produce.

 

Just let the consumer decide if it important to them. Why wouldn't you? 

I don't really know, since displaying fresh produce's country of origin has been the way of the supermarket retail world for decades, come to think of it...

 

(and that state of affairs might even have come as a result of EU consumer-related law, though I could well be wrong about that and, but for the irony of it if that was the case, it' just about (90 days-ish) moot by now anyway)

 

There is, of course, a surge in nationalism which UK retailers <of any wares> could exploit well in months and even years to come, as Johnson's government trumpets the EU-to-blame narrative ever louder, wherein 'not from the EU' stickers could yield a nice, fatter profit margin on anything non-EU irrespective of economical and/or qualitatitve merit relative to the EU alternative. More power to such retailers if they can pull it off, says I.

 

Makes EU27 produce not exported to the UK cheaper for EU27 consumers due to overproduction. Cheaper Brazilian beef for Brits, cheaper Irish beef for europeans, everybody wins :thumbsup:

Edited by L00b

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5 hours ago, Tony said:

Why should it indeed. You have a very good point and well made at that.

 

Competition is very healthy, as Spanish onion growers (et al) will find out when many of the UK's worldwide tariffs are reduced down to zero from the current puniative rate for imports outside the EU. (10% for onions ISTR) . I hear that Zimbabwe is sorting out it's farm situation, so it might be African onions served with your Brazilian beef (currently 13% ?).

That sounds good for the planet.

3 hours ago, Tony said:

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

 

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

Anything from 5 to 9m adults in this country are functionally illiterate.

7 hours ago, Tony said:

Here's an example of state aid that HMG might think a worthwhile investment. In this instance the UK should be able to decide if it wants to commit funds to a project. If the EU has a veto on UK internal policy it could simply refuse permission to the UK while making special state aid exemption rules for its own competing interests. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/10/04/uks-gigafactory-dream-could-fall-without-change-state-aid-rules/

 

 

We have limits on state aid because of the freshly signed Japan trade deal. Link a page or two back.

 

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13 hours ago, L00b said:

I don't really know, since displaying fresh produce's country of origin has been the way of the supermarket retail world for decades, come to think of it...

 

(and that state of affairs might even have come as a result of EU consumer-related law, though I could well be wrong about that and, but for the irony of it if that was the case, it' just about (90 days-ish) moot by now anyway)

 

There is, of course, a surge in nationalism which UK retailers <of any wares> could exploit well in months and even years to come, as Johnson's government trumpets the EU-to-blame narrative ever louder, wherein 'not from the EU' stickers could yield a nice, fatter profit margin on anything non-EU irrespective of economical and/or qualitatitve merit relative to the EU alternative. More power to such retailers if they can pull it off, says I.

 

Makes EU27 produce not exported to the UK cheaper for EU27 consumers due to overproduction. Cheaper Brazilian beef for Brits, cheaper Irish beef for europeans, everybody wins :thumbsup:

We're about to drift into one of my areas of interest - localism, or "nationalism" as you might accidentally badge it. 

 

Motivation for buying locally - and I mean as locally as possible - should be developed and encouraged. That's going to be especially relevant in the next couple of years with the after effects of Covid 19 in economically underperforming areas such as Sheffield. The value of a local pound to the local economy is much higher when people choose to buy from local suppliers, preferably selling locally produced goods. In short, £1 can be worth as much as £6-7 when it's respent locally.

 

For example; buy a newspaper from your local newsagent instead of WH Smith. Definitely don't have an  online subscription instead. That £1 spent in your local family newsagent goes directly into the proprietor's family budget. They respend a larger proportion of that £1 in other local businesses, putting it into local wage packets, who respend it again, and the process keeps repeating. Eventually that £1 breaks down and leaks out into the regional, then the national, then the international economy.

 

Buying your paper at WH Smith sends 95p straight to WHS PLC in London. 5p is retained locally via wages  of and the government in London takes 2p back in taxes leaving. 3p of your £1 locally.

 

Buying an online subscription to the Yorkshire Post (as fine an organ as it is) sends £1 to Johnston Press PLC in London, who send back 5p for local staff before HMG takes 2p back in taxes. 3p of your £1 stays in the local economy.

 

That's why people are kidded into believing that London is "the engine room of the UK economy" when the reality is that it is sucking local money out of local people's pocket and handing back a few buttons.

 

The New Economic Foundation did some excellent work on this a few years ago and even went as far as producing tools that can be used by business and the public sector buyers to focus that respend into the local economy. It's definitely not nationalism though, it's just good sense.

 

Here endeth the lesson :)

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12 hours ago, tinfoilhat said:

That sounds good for the planet.

Anything from 5 to 9m adults in this country are functionally illiterate.

We have limits on state aid because of the freshly signed Japan trade deal. Link a page or two back.

 

1. I'm all for home-grown produce and as short a field to plate distance as possible. My dad grows fabulous onions. Some years. 

2. Terrible isn't it? You'd approve of some sort of big logo on produce then? Onion A has a union jack with 100% on it, Onion B has a union Jack with "0% British" above a Spanish flag with "100% Spain". 

3. I *think* you're misrepresenting it a tad. The important mutual restrictions are around open ended state aid which isn't at all unreasonable. Otherwise, Honda could send free components (courtesy of Japanese state aid) to be fitted in UK built cars to undercut UK made companants. It doesn't preclude state aid at all.

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42 minutes ago, Tony said:

We're about to drift into one of my areas of interest - localism, or "nationalism" as you might accidentally badge it. 

 

<...>

 

Here endeth the lesson :)

Don't presume to teach me about Keynesian economics privileging homespun goods and financial isolationism. It was taught in schools decades ago, and I was paying attention.

 

The solution to the ills of globalisation, does not lie in autarky. It lies in better-coordinated governance by ever-more accountable governments.

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

We're about to drift into one of my areas of interest - localism, or "nationalism" as you might accidentally badge it. 

 

Motivation for buying locally - and I mean as locally as possible - should be developed and encouraged. That's going to be especially relevant in the next couple of years with the after effects of Covid 19 in economically underperforming areas such as Sheffield. The value of a local pound to the local economy is much higher when people choose to buy from local suppliers, preferably selling locally produced goods. In short, £1 can be worth as much as £6-7 when it's respent locally.

 

For example; buy a newspaper from your local newsagent instead of WH Smith. Definitely don't have an  online subscription instead. That £1 spent in your local family newsagent goes directly into the proprietor's family budget. They respend a larger proportion of that £1 in other local businesses, putting it into local wage packets, who respend it again, and the process keeps repeating. Eventually that £1 breaks down and leaks out into the regional, then the national, then the international economy.

 

Buying your paper at WH Smith sends 95p straight to WHS PLC in London. 5p is retained locally via wages  of and the government in London takes 2p back in taxes leaving. 3p of your £1 locally.

 

Buying an online subscription to the Yorkshire Post (as fine an organ as it is) sends £1 to Johnston Press PLC in London, who send back 5p for local staff before HMG takes 2p back in taxes. 3p of your £1 stays in the local economy.

 

That's why people are kidded into believing that London is "the engine room of the UK economy" when the reality is that it is sucking local money out of local people's pocket and handing back a few buttons.

 

The New Economic Foundation did some excellent work on this a few years ago and even went as far as producing tools that can be used by business and the public sector buyers to focus that respend into the local economy. It's definitely not nationalism though, it's just good sense.

 

Here endeth the lesson :)

Just as a matter of interest, I'll try and dissect how this relates to Brexit, as it invalidates the argument for Brexit. 

 

The theory of localism only works provided there is:

 

A) No global market and no demand in the local market for products only available on the global market, or: 

B) Abundant resources in the local market to enable production of all core products in demand, or:

C) Purchasing power at least equal to or better than competing 'localities'. 

 

A - we know is false, there is a global market and there is demand for products on that market. 

C - we know is going to be impacted by introduction of tariffs 

 

So B is the one of interest and the area where Brexiteers pin their hopes: We are apparently going to diversify our economy, rebuild manufacturing and become a proud exporting nation (once this rebuild is finished). 

 

That than leaves a few questions that I am sure you will provide a full answer to: 

 

B1: Where is the workforce coming from? There is scarcity on the job market as is. 

B2: Where are the resources coming from? The UK will be competing for raw resources with the likes of China, US, EU, India and many others. 

B3: Is the market here big enough to warrant investment of IP by multinationals? In other words, why would Nissan maintain their production capacity in Sunderland, knowing that it only sells 20% of cars manufactured in Sunderland in the UK? 

B4: How are locally produced products going to be competitive when the supply chain has now been extended to include waiting times at borders, bureaucratic checks and so on? 

 

Pedagogically a good lesson is one that raises questions and triggers critical debate, not one whereby a flawed theory is spelled out as fact. So once again, I am looking forward to the answers. 

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7 hours ago, Tony said:

1. I'm all for home-grown produce and as short a field to plate distance as possible. My dad grows fabulous onions. Some years. 

2. Terrible isn't it? You'd approve of some sort of big logo on produce then? Onion A has a union jack with 100% on it, Onion B has a union Jack with "0% British" above a Spanish flag with "100% Spain". 

3. I *think* you're misrepresenting it a tad. The important mutual restrictions are around open ended state aid which isn't at all unreasonable. Otherwise, Honda could send free components (courtesy of Japanese state aid) to be fitted in UK built cars to undercut UK made companants. It doesn't preclude state aid at all.

Doesn't preclude it, but is a restriction that - as I understand it - more restrictive than the EU one.

 

I'm all for localism. Not much of it about sadly. Happy for thwacking great stickers on where things are produced and how they've been transported (air or ship) - I believe M&S were kicking that idea about for a bit. Most won't pay any attention, and we might find Its a bit of a problem for any trade deal with our friends in America.

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