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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

Here's an example of state aid that HMG might think a worthwhile investment. In this instance the UK should be able to decide if it wants to commit funds to a project. If the EU has a veto on UK internal policy it could simply refuse permission to the UK while making special state aid exemption rules for its own competing interests. 

That would be a situation borne from the EU27's leverage in trade negotiations over the UK, created solely by the UK's deliberate choice to set itself up as competition to the EU27. 

 

Why should the UK should expect a free lunch from the EU27? 

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15 minutes ago, L00b said:

That would be a situation borne from the EU27's leverage in trade negotiations over the UK, created solely by the UK's deliberate choice to set itself up as competition to the EU27. 

 

Why should the UK should expect a free lunch from the EU27? 

Why should it indeed. You have a very good point and well made at that.

 

Competition is very healthy, as Spanish onion growers (et al) will find out when many of the UK's worldwide tariffs are reduced down to zero from the current puniative rate for imports outside the EU. (10% for onions ISTR) . I hear that Zimbabwe is sorting out it's farm situation, so it might be African onions served with your Brazilian beef (currently 13% ?).

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24 minutes ago, Tony said:

Why should it indeed. You have a very good point and well made at that.

 

Competition is very healthy, as Spanish onion growers (et al) will find out when many of the UK's worldwide tariffs are reduced down to zero from the current puniative rate for imports outside the EU. (10% for onions ISTR) . I hear that Zimbabwe is sorting out it's farm situation, so it might be African onions served with your Brazilian beef (currently 13% ?).

Brextremist supporting farmers wont be happy

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57 minutes ago, Tony said:

Why should it indeed. You have a very good point and well made at that.

 

Competition is very healthy, as Spanish onion growers (et al) will find out when many of the UK's worldwide tariffs are reduced down to zero from the current puniative rate for imports outside the EU. (10% for onions ISTR) . I hear that Zimbabwe is sorting out it's farm situation, so it might be African onions served with your Brazilian beef (currently 13% ?).

I'm sure Zimbabwean onions would be perfectly fine for consumption, and they'd likely be cheaper to produce than Spanish ones :)

 

Since that hypothetical zero tariff base would apply to onions from <wherever> (WTO MFN says), then it'd be down to wether Tesco & the like can get them landed in the UK from Zimbabwe, cheap enough to maintain that cost differential, or whether Spanish (or still others) are still in with a shout after freight is factored in (plus the importing red tape: don't forget that new importing red tape, 10% or 0% tariffs irrespective...someone's got to pay for it, and it won't Spaniards or Zimbabwean onion producers).

 

Given that free-for-all access to UK food shelves granted to <the world> under the logic of your post, then may the most competitive producers of fresh foodstuffs win, indeed.

 

But that state aid thing, about making EV batteries <or whatever> with a forest's worth of taxpayer money trees? Still no ;)

Edited by L00b

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1 hour ago, melthebell said:

Brextremist supporting farmers wont be happy

Indeed they won't, but I suspect they'll be unhappy no matter what happens now.

 

Still, they knew what they were voting for...

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1 hour ago, L00b said:

I'm sure Zimbabwean onions would be perfectly fine for consumption, and they'd likely be cheaper to produce than Spanish ones :)

 

Since that hypothetical zero tariff base would apply to onions from <wherever> (WTO MFN says), then it'd be down to wether Tesco & the like can get them landed in the UK from Zimbabwe, cheap enough to maintain that cost differential, or whether Spanish (or still others) are still in with a shout after freight is factored in (plus the importing red tape: don't forget that new importing red tape, 10% or 0% tariffs irrespective...someone's got to pay for it, and it won't Spaniards or Zimbabwean onion producers).

 

Given that free-for-all access to UK food shelves granted to <the world> under the logic of your post, then may the most competitive producers of fresh foodstuffs win, indeed.

 

But that state aid thing, about making EV batteries <or whatever> with a forest's worth of taxpayer money trees? Still no ;)

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

 

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

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50 minutes ago, Tony said:

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

Why does this particular value judgement matter to Tesco's purchasing director of the example?

 

His/her remit is to secure the best onion supply for maximising Tesco's profit, all other considerations being equal: whether that supply is domestic or foreign and, if foreign, from inside or outside any protectionist environment, EU or not, should surely be irrelevant.

 

No?

50 minutes ago, Tony said:

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

Is that inspired by the same sentiment, as the UK recently wanted the EU to accept Japanese-made and Turkish-made automotive parts in UK-assembled cars,  as counting towards the UK country-of-origin percentage?

 

;)

 

 

Edited by L00b

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1. I was referring to you and I understanding enough to make a value judgement, not Tesco's buyers.

 

2. Not at all. Complex goods are a little different but it's a reasonable thing to make available to the end consumer. Engine made in Dagenham, bodywork from Poland, assembled in Spain. After all, these days "Japanese" cars are made in Sunderland and Derby while "English" Range Rovers are build in Latvia (ISTR) and consumers decide accordingly. Onions are more straightforward and it's only extending the Red Tractor scheme beyond the goods that aren't UK produce.

 

Just let the consumer decide if it important to them. Why wouldn't you? 

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1 hour ago, Tony said:

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

The thrust of the Brexit argument is, cheap, cheap and cheap; not more costs and higher standards.

I prefer high standards myself.

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Cheap is one option of many.  If Zim' farmers can get the onions that consumers like to Immingham for less money than Spanish farmers, the consumer wins. Cheap comes from choice and choice is for the consumer to decide, not the producer or their minders. 

 

This oversimplified point seems a bit too obvious, but there we have it. 

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2 hours ago, Tony said:

1. I was referring to you and I understanding enough to make a value judgement, not Tesco's buyers.

 

2. Not at all. Complex goods are a little different but it's a reasonable thing to make available to the end consumer. Engine made in Dagenham, bodywork from Poland, assembled in Spain. After all, these days "Japanese" cars are made in Sunderland and Derby while "English" Range Rovers are build in Latvia (ISTR) and consumers decide accordingly. Onions are more straightforward and it's only extending the Red Tractor scheme beyond the goods that aren't UK produce.

 

Just let the consumer decide if it important to them. Why wouldn't you? 

I don't really know, since displaying fresh produce's country of origin has been the way of the supermarket retail world for decades, come to think of it...

 

(and that state of affairs might even have come as a result of EU consumer-related law, though I could well be wrong about that and, but for the irony of it if that was the case, it' just about (90 days-ish) moot by now anyway)

 

There is, of course, a surge in nationalism which UK retailers <of any wares> could exploit well in months and even years to come, as Johnson's government trumpets the EU-to-blame narrative ever louder, wherein 'not from the EU' stickers could yield a nice, fatter profit margin on anything non-EU irrespective of economical and/or qualitatitve merit relative to the EU alternative. More power to such retailers if they can pull it off, says I.

 

Makes EU27 produce not exported to the UK cheaper for EU27 consumers due to overproduction. Cheaper Brazilian beef for Brits, cheaper Irish beef for europeans, everybody wins :thumbsup:

Edited by L00b

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5 hours ago, Tony said:

Why should it indeed. You have a very good point and well made at that.

 

Competition is very healthy, as Spanish onion growers (et al) will find out when many of the UK's worldwide tariffs are reduced down to zero from the current puniative rate for imports outside the EU. (10% for onions ISTR) . I hear that Zimbabwe is sorting out it's farm situation, so it might be African onions served with your Brazilian beef (currently 13% ?).

That sounds good for the planet.

3 hours ago, Tony said:

We'd have to understand the real cost of onion production inside / outside the protectionist environment of the EU before we can make any value judgement. 

 

On a slightly related note, one thing I'd be very supportive of would be a new UK law requiring goods to be marked with a country of origin %. A better informed consumer would be able to make their own value judgements about what's important to them apart from price. 

Anything from 5 to 9m adults in this country are functionally illiterate.

7 hours ago, Tony said:

Here's an example of state aid that HMG might think a worthwhile investment. In this instance the UK should be able to decide if it wants to commit funds to a project. If the EU has a veto on UK internal policy it could simply refuse permission to the UK while making special state aid exemption rules for its own competing interests. 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/10/04/uks-gigafactory-dream-could-fall-without-change-state-aid-rules/

 

 

We have limits on state aid because of the freshly signed Japan trade deal. Link a page or two back.

 

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