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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

Vaati

Let me make this perfectly clear - any personal attacks will get you a suspension. The moderating team is not going to continually issue warnings. If you cannot remain civil and post within forum rules then do not bother to contribute.

 

In addition to remoaner we are also not going to allow the use of libdums or liebore - if you cannot behave like adults and post without recourse to these childish insults then please refrain from posting. If you have a problem with this then you all know where the helpdesk is. 

Message added by Vaati

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9 minutes ago, Magilla said:

The Disturbing Campaign Against Poland’s Judges:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/disturbing-campaign-against-polish-judges/605623/

 

The Collapse of Judicial Independence in Poland:

https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/the-collapse-of-judicial-independence-in-poland-a-cautionary-tale/

 

 

Once again, you highlight that you really don't have a clue what's going on!

 

Well done for finding two articles to attempt to discredit the Polish judiciary system.  However, there is no mention of the issue I stated or nothing to support that the EU haven't exceeded legal powers granted to them by member countries in the various treaties over the years.

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46 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The issue is the Polish judiciary believe the EU have exceeded the agreed legal powers granted by member countries in the various treaties over the years.  

The Polish judges believe wrong, without a shred of a doubt on orders from the Polish executive which, through appointing them in the recent past, has severely compromised the independence of that judiciary in Poland (edit - per Magilla’s post).
 

The EU has not exceeded any agreed legal powers: the ruling is attacking CJEU case law on judicial independence, which does not expand EU competences at all, moreover wherein the EU has no policy-making competences in this area at all. There is a clear difference between competence (to change/influence national law) and compliance (of national law making with fundamental EU principles, one of which is the separation of judicial and executive powers).

 

There would be no point to even having a CJEU, if it was not allowed to make rulings on what judicial independence means, as the expression is codified in EU treaties and other statutes.
 

Poland knew this well when they signed up to the EU byway back when, and nothing has changed one iota since.  
 

This is just another case of a populist government playing billy-big-b****cks to their domestic audience, and letting their rethoric carry them on to eventually step on their appendage. Boo-hoo.

46 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Of course it's blackmail because no member state can leave the EU overnight. The UK were never given a free meal or expected a free meal during its time as a member of the EU.

Poland can either adhere to the rules of the club (by keeping its judiciary independent, rather than politically malleable, and restoring primacy of EU law in areas of pooled competence), or can suffer the sanctioning consequences of continuing to breach the rules, or can leave the club altogether if they’re so bothered about competences which the EU hasn’t actually got.
 

Them’s their choices, all are fully sovereign (Poland can pick whichever whenever) so I’m not seeing any coercion there whatsoever.
 

So you’ll have to explain to me how that is ‘blackmail’?

Edited by L00b

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8 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Well done for finding two articles to attempt to discredit the Polish judiciary system.

Desperate stuff...

 

It wasn't hard, there are literally hundreds articles, from all parts of the globe.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter... if you can find any! :hihi:

 

8 minutes ago, West 77 said:

However, there is no mention of the issue I stated or nothing to support that the EU haven't exceeded legal powers granted to them by member countries in the various treaties over the years.

There is nothing that would stand up in an independent court suggesting they have either.

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1 hour ago, L00b said:

The Polish judges believe wrong, without a shred of a doubt on orders from the Polish executive which, through appointing them in the recent past, has severely compromised the independence of that judiciary in Poland (edit - per Magilla’s post).
 

The EU has not exceeded any agreed legal powers: the ruling is attacking CJEU case law on judicial independence, which does not expand EU competences at all, moreover wherein the EU has no policy-making competences in this area at all. There is a clear difference between competence (to change/influence national law) and compliance (of national law making with fundamental EU principles, one of which is the separation of judicial and executive powers).

 

There would be no point to even having a CJEU, if it was not allowed to make rulings on what judicial independence means, as the expression is codified in EU treaties and other statutes.
 

Poland knew this well when they signed up to the EU byway back when, and nothing has changed one iota since.  
 

This is just another case of a populist government playing billy-big-b****cks to their domestic audience, and letting their rethoric carry them on to eventually step on their appendage. Boo-hoo.

Poland can either adhere to the rules of the club (by keeping its judiciary independent, rather than politically malleable, and restoring primacy of EU law in areas of pooled competence), or can suffer the sanctioning consequences of continuing to breach the rules, or can leave the club altogether if they’re so bothered about competences which the EU hasn’t actually got.
 

Them’s their choices, all are fully sovereign (Poland can pick whichever whenever) so I’m not seeing any coercion there whatsoever.
 

So you’ll have to explain to me how that is ‘blackmail’?

Your support for the EU is no surprise.  It's only your bias opinion that the Polish judges believe wrong.  The rule of law is rarely black or white.

 

I'm not here to teach you the English or Polish definition of blackmail. It's no surprise to me as a fanatical supporter of the EU that you have a problem recognising  blackmail.  I guess supporters of the Mafia also have problems recognising blackmail.

 

 

1 hour ago, Magilla said:

Desperate stuff...

 

It wasn't hard, there are literally hundreds articles, from all parts of the globe.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter... if you can find any! :hihi:

 

There is nothing that would stand up in an independent court suggesting they have either.

Yes desperate stuff on your part by posting links to discredit the Polish judiciary system.  The ruling party in Poland is called the "Law and Justice" party and it isn't really a surprise that a party going by that name has made changes to their judiciary system while in power. It's for the Polish people to decide who rules their own country and what laws are made or changed.

 

Neither the EU or the Polish courts are independent.  There will be no independent courts making any ruling on this issue.  The real issue is sovereignty and the Polish Government are correct to challenge the EU court ruling and seeking to ensure the Polish legal system is respected by the EU.

Edited by West 77

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55 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Yes desperate stuff on your part by posting links to discredit the Polish judiciary system.

It's largely a universal view, not just mine.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter that view, if you can find any.

 

Quote

The ruling party in Poland is called the "Law and Justice" party and it isn't really a surprise that a party going by that name has made changes to their judiciary system while in power.

If they're really the "Law and Justice" party, why have they spent a significant amount of time undermining the rule of law, justice, and free press?

 

Quote

It's for the Polish people to decide who rules their own country and what laws are made or changed.

Indeed, which is why PiS is losing support hand over fist, already lost their majority and it's unlikely it will continue in office for the remainder of this legislature.

 

If an election were called today, they would lose!

 

Quote

Neither the EU or the Polish courts are independent.  There will be no independent courts making any ruling on this issue.

Nonsense.

 

Quote

The real issue is sovereignty and the Polish Government are correct to challenge the EU court ruling and seeking to ensure the Polish legal system is respected by the EU.

They knew what they were signing up to.

 

Then there's Brexit, a permanent shambles no one wants to copy... :?

Edited by Magilla

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27 minutes ago, Magilla said:

It's largely a universal view, not just mine.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter that view, if you can find any.

 

If they're really the "Law and Justice" party, why have they spent a significant amount of time undermining that rule of law and justice?

 

Indeed, which is why PiS is losing support hand over fist, to the extent that it's unlikely it will continue in office for the remainder of this legislature.

 

If an election were called today, they would lose... badly.

 

Nonsense.

 

It is, otherwise surely they wouldn't have signed up to it! ;)

I'm not here to support the current Polish government or to defend their legal system. However, the current government was democratically elected and they deserve to be respected by the EU  just like every EU member's government should be respected.

 

You continue to scribble nonsense.  Poland have been in the EU for over seventeen years and the same people will not be in power today who were when they joined or when other treaties were agreed.  Any government is entitled to get their lawyers to look at previous treaties and to ask for their interpretations to discover whether any past agreement affects current domestic law or prevents them from making changes.  

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1 minute ago, West 77 said:

I'm not here to support the current Polish government or to defend their legal system.

Just as well, because the Polish government just spent the last few years undermining and hobbling their legal system :?

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

However, the current government was democratically elected and they deserve to be respected by the EU  just like every EU member's government should be respected.

They are, if they want to renege on treaties they've signed, they can... but they must accept the consequences of doing so.

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

You continue to scribble nonsense.

You lack the cognitive ability to understand the issues at hand. :thumbsup:

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

Poland have been in the EU for over seventeen years and the same people will not be in power today who were when they joined or when other treaties were agreed.  Any government is entitled to get their lawyers to look at previous treaties and to ask for their interpretations to discover whether any past agreement affects current domestic law or prevents them from making changes.  

...those changes have consequences that are known in advance, as such your claims of "blackmail" fall flat. :?

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1 hour ago, West 77 said:

Your support for the EU is no surprise.  It's only your bias opinion that the Polish judges believe wrong.  The rule of law is rarely black or white.

 

I'm not here to teach you the English or Polish definition of blackmail. It's no surprise to me as a fanatical supporter of the EU that you have a problem recognising  blackmail.  I guess supporters of the Mafia also have problems recognising blackmail.

 

 

Yes desperate stuff on your part by posting links to discredit the Polish judiciary system.  The ruling party in Poland is called the "Law and Justice" party and it isn't really a surprise that a party going by that name has made changes to their judiciary system while in power. It's for the Polish people to decide who rules their own country and what laws are made or changed.

 

Neither the EU or the Polish courts are independent.  There will be no independent courts making any ruling on this issue.  The real issue is sovereignty and the Polish Government are correct to challenge the EU court ruling and seeking to ensure the Polish legal system is respected by the EU.

My “support for the EU” has nothing to do with this Polish sub-topic whatsoever.

 

You should be invoking my support for the rule of law and the separation of executive, judiciary and legislative powers instead.
 

If you had any basic understanding of these concepts. Which, looking at your last few posts (and now your resorting to ad hominem attacks), very clearly you do not.

 

Beside parroting anti-EU disinformation and empty slogans, why do you contribute to this thread?

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5 hours ago, L00b said:

My “support for the EU” has nothing to do with this Polish sub-topic whatsoever.

 

You should be invoking my support for the rule of law and the separation of executive, judiciary and legislative powers instead.
 

If you had any basic understanding of these concepts. Which, looking at your last few posts (and now your resorting to ad hominem attacks), very clearly you do not.

 

Beside parroting anti-EU disinformation and empty slogans, why do you contribute to this thread?

Comedy Gold.  Not only are you anti British and  anti democracy, you're also anti free speech. Napoleon would be so proud of you. 

 

I contribute here because there is no rule of law that forbids anyone who isn't anti British, anti democratic or anti Brexit from doing so.  Regarding Poland the issue is concerning the rule of law and that issue is to ensure Polish rule of law takes precedence over the EU rule of law. The EU haven't learned from their mistake by not be willing to reform when David Cameron attempted to get them to do so before the EU referendum vote. Throughout the EU there are many citizens in all EU members states who are not happy with their own country given away sovereignty to the EU.  The current Polish government should be applauded for challenging EU rulings which is something that successive  British governments failed to do so during our time in the EU. If a strong  and prestigious country like Britain had took the stance the current Polish government are doing today then the likelihood is the EU wouldn't have turned into the monster it is today.

Edited by West 77

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18 hours ago, West 77 said:

Comedy Gold.  Not only are you anti British and  anti democracy, you're also anti free speech. Napoleon would be so proud of you. 

I’m hardly “anti-free speech”, when I’m asking you an open question about your contributions, and not about your privilege to post, am I? 🙄
 

Posting “because you can” is a kindergarten-grade answer, can’t you do better?
 

That second section after your ad hominem in your last post, demonstrates zero understanding of the legal facts and arguments underpinning that Polish case, and of basic EU constitutional law. Even after I tried to bootstrap your knowledge about it in my last two posts.
 

So as usual, you’re not interested in debating anything that doesn’t conform with your twisted world view, still less to educate yourself about facts for informing your opinion.
 

Ergo, back to my original question.

 

In the meantime, have a new Brexit ‘win’:

 

How is this a ‘win’, you may ask?
 

Well, by increasing GB’s dependence on food imports, and given the gravity effect of international trade (under which most import/export is always done with your nearest neighbours), the British population is highly likely to maintain healthier food supplies from the EU27 (and particularly Ireland), given that MEPs have banned factory farming 👍🏻
 

Sucks a bit if you’re a British farmer, sure. Especially a young one. But well, hey…omelette, eggs and all that.

Edited by L00b

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3 hours ago, L00b said:

I’m hardly “anti-free speech”, when I’m asking you an open question about your contributions, and not about your privilege to post, am I? 🙄
 

Posting “because you can” is a kindergarten-grade answer, can’t you do better?
 

That second section after your ad hominem in your last post, demonstrates zero understanding of the legal facts and arguments underpinning that Polish case, and of basic EU constitutional law. Even after I tried to bootstrap your knowledge about it in my last two posts.
 

So as usual, you’re not interested in debating anything that doesn’t conform with your twisted world view, still less to educate yourself about facts for informing your opinion.
 

Ergo, back to my original question.

 

In the meantime, have a new Brexit ‘win’:

 

How is this a ‘win’, you may ask?
 

Well, by increasing GB’s dependence on food imports, and given the gravity effect of international trade (under which most import/export is always done with your nearest neighbours), the British population is highly likely to maintain healthier food supplies from the EU27 (and particularly Ireland), given that MEPs have banned factory farming 👍🏻
 

Sucks a bit if you’re a British farmer, sure. Especially a young one. But well, hey…omelette, eggs and all that.

You still continue to bury your head in the sand regarding the EU and believe everything they do is correct while any member state who challenges any of their rulings is wrong. I've acknowledged the UK played a big part in creating the monster that the EU has turned into by failing to challenge their decisions and failing to use the UK veto over the years while they were a member.

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6 minutes ago, West 77 said:

You still continue to bury your head in the sand regarding the EU and believe everything they do is correct while any member state who challenges any of their rulings is wrong. I've acknowledged the UK played a big part in creating the monster that the EU has turned into by failing to challenge their decisions and failing to use the UK veto over the years while they were a member.

There is a very clear difference between “believing everything the EU do is correct while any member state who challenges any of their rulings is wrong” and “considering Poland’s ruling to be wrong”.
 

I don’t think you’ve appreciated that difference yet. Let me know when you do.

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