Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[Tony 10]

@RJRB I'll try to help a little but I'm really not willing to get into a pointless discussion because I'm pretty confident that you're simply looking for new and interesting ways to criticise Brexit and reinforce your prejudices. I'm not having a go at you, you'd be a rare bird if you wanted to have a constructive discussion so that you can begin to gain, as you say, acceptance through understanding. 

 

But here goes, have a little red meat and we can see how it goes;

 

The current HGV driver shortage is, as per the title, the consequence of Brexit being played out in real time but not in the superficial way you think. Let me try to demystify that. 

 

If you're as sensible as you seem and follow events around the world, you'll agree that the HGV driver shortage has something but not a lot to do with Brexit. I'm still prepared to use it as a lightning rod for our purposes.  The anti-Brexit crowd think the shortage its a negative Brexit thing but it's not. It is part of the journey to realign how the nation works for some of the most overlooked, unrepresented, unappreciated and sneered at in our society. Brexit isn't just an event, it an actual people's revolution the like of which has never been seen before and we need to pay attention to them at last. Listen to some lorry drivers from 2 years and 2 weeks ago. I hope it helps to gain some understanding. 

 

2019 

 

 

2021 and nothings changed.

 

 

 

Both of those precede the current fuss about HGV driver shortages. 

[Carbuncle 0]

43 minutes ago, Tony said:

If you're as sensible as you seem and follow events around the world, you'll agree that the HGV driver shortage has something but not a lot to do with Brexit.

You seem to be arguing that Brexit was merely the last straw, the one that broke the camel's back and that being only the one straw it played only a minor role given the rest of the burden on the camel. This is specious.

 

We had a working camel back before Brexit. The EU27 are each possessed of a working camel. Our camel is broken and it is Brexit that did it.

[RJRB 688]

@TonyYou may consider my viewpoint as being prejudice against Brexit,but to my mind it’s a reasoned decision after weighing up the pros and cons as I see them.

I voted to join the Common Market during my working life and welcomed the freedom of movement of people and goods within the EU.

I have never felt that I have lost any identity of being a U.K. citizen nor do I believe that our elected government and judiciary is shackled by a higher power.

I am not saying it’s perfect at all times but we had a seat at the top table of a major world trading bloc .

The cost of the realignment that you refer to will be borne by those at the bottom of the heap whilst we pursue the jam of tomorrow.Unfortunately that is how revolutions work.

And who has led us down this road.Not the people but the extreme right of a right wing party.

 

 

[El Cid 220]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

The current HGV driver shortage is, as per the title, the consequence of Brexit being played out in real time but not in the superficial way you think. Let me try to demystify that. 

 

If you're as sensible as you seem and follow events around the world, you'll agree that the HGV driver shortage has something but not a lot to do with Brexit. I'm still prepared to use it as a lightning rod for our purposes.  The anti-Brexit crowd think the shortage its a negative Brexit thing but it's not. It is part of the journey to realign how the nation works for some of the most overlooked, unrepresented, unappreciated and sneered at in our society. Brexit isn't just an event, it an actual people's revolution the like of which has never been seen before and we need to pay attention to them at last.

 

If you think the shortage is due to Brexit and its a good thing. Then its rational to assume that the same outcome could happen in other job roles, nurses, hospitality, doctors, dentists, midwifes, archetects, vets, construction workers, the list is endless.

So we will have staff shortages in hospitality, NHS, construction and the list goes on. How is the NHS going to recover from COVID and dentists services improve with a shortage of workers?

[L00b 441]

10 hours ago, El Cid said:

If you think the shortage is due to Brexit and its a good thing. Then its rational to assume that the same outcome could happen in other job roles, nurses, hospitality, doctors, dentists, midwifes, archetects, vets, construction workers, the list is endless.

So we will have staff shortages in hospitality, NHS, construction and the list goes on. How is the NHS going to recover from COVID and dentists services improve with a shortage of workers?

They are not supposed to. Part and parcel of this ‘readjustment’ which Tony posts about.

[tzijlstra 11]

12 hours ago, Tony said:

If you're as sensible as you seem and follow events around the world, you'll agree that the HGV driver shortage has something but not a lot to do with Brexit. I'm still prepared to use it as a lightning rod for our purposes.  The anti-Brexit crowd think the shortage its a negative Brexit thing but it's not. It is part of the journey to realign how the nation works for some of the most overlooked, unrepresented, unappreciated and sneered at in our society. Brexit isn't just an event, it an actual people's revolution the like of which has never been seen before and we need to pay attention to them at last. Listen to some lorry drivers from 2 years and 2 weeks ago. I hope it helps to gain some understanding.

 

Thanks Tony, I appreciate hearing your view, you are right, there was a drive to lower costs in the haulage industry, just as there was in other domestic industries, agriculture being a significant one. 

 

Two questions with my thoughts:

 

Who will pay for the increased costs?

 

The customer will pay. In countries with a higher wage level than the UK (And it isn't significantly higher except for Norway!) daily living costs are significantly higher. My brother pays around 200 Euros for his weekly shop, feeding a family of four. We pay under £100 for the two of us and that includes luxuries such as wine and other treats. A family of four can manage on around £120 a week and be comfortable in the UK. I fill up my 60 liter diesel tank for around £80, he fills up for around 120 euros. In short, it is admirable to want better wages for everybody, but it doesn't actually lead to an improved cost of living for those at the bottom of the rung. Foodbanks in the Netherlands are as prevalent as they are in the UK.

 

Where will the work force come from? 

 

This is sort of going round in circles, but the simple fact is that unemployment in the UK is low, very low. And has remained low even during times of 'mass immigration'. Farmers around us here in Angus are quite literally letting cabbages and potatoes rot away because they can not harvest due to staff shortage. The only logical consequence is that there needs to be a shift of workers from other areas into the areas that require them. That isn't going to happen in significant enough numbers. 

 

Then the final thought I offer on this: What stopped the UK from achieving better living wages for all whilst it was a part of the EU? The simple answer is: Nothing. The Living Wage project already led to an increase of the minimum wage and the minimum wage is and was decided by the UK government. It would have been very easy to adjust the fiscal system to ensure those under, let's say 30k a year, would have been better of. Brexit doesn't change anything about that, it is a fallacy to think it does. All Brexit has done is exacerbate staff shortages and proffer a false dream of increased wages. 'Maybe this time...' The Northern towns are going to feel this for a long time. 

 

 

[Anna B 1,414]

16 minutes ago, tzijlstra said:

Thanks Tony, I appreciate hearing your view, you are right, there was a drive to lower costs in the haulage industry, just as there was in other domestic industries, agriculture being a significant one. 

 

Two questions with my thoughts:

 

Who will pay for the increased costs?

 

The customer will pay. In countries with a higher wage level than the UK (And it isn't significantly higher except for Norway!) daily living costs are significantly higher. My brother pays around 200 Euros for his weekly shop, feeding a family of four. We pay under £100 for the two of us and that includes luxuries such as wine and other treats. A family of four can manage on around £120 a week and be comfortable in the UK. I fill up my 60 liter diesel tank for around £80, he fills up for around 120 euros. In short, it is admirable to want better wages for everybody, but it doesn't actually lead to an improved cost of living for those at the bottom of the rung. Foodbanks in the Netherlands are as prevalent as they are in the UK.

 

Where will the work force come from? 

 

This is sort of going round in circles, but the simple fact is that unemployment in the UK is low, very low. And has remained low even during times of 'mass immigration'. Farmers around us here in Angus are quite literally letting cabbages and potatoes rot away because they can not harvest due to staff shortage. The only logical consequence is that there needs to be a shift of workers from other areas into the areas that require them. That isn't going to happen in significant enough numbers. 

 

Then the final thought I offer on this: What stopped the UK from achieving better living wages for all whilst it was a part of the EU? The simple answer is: Nothing. The Living Wage project already led to an increase of the minimum wage and the minimum wage is and was decided by the UK government. It would have been very easy to adjust the fiscal system to ensure those under, let's say 30k a year, would have been better of. Brexit doesn't change anything about that, it is a fallacy to think it does. All Brexit has done is exacerbate staff shortages and proffer a false dream of increased wages. 'Maybe this time...' The Northern towns are going to feel this for a long time. 

 

 

But we 'Got Brexit Done!' didn't we?  Thanks to bungling Boris.... So everything now should be cushty.

 

 

[geared 318]

13 hours ago, Tony said:

If you're as sensible as you seem and follow events around the world, you'll agree that the HGV driver shortage has something but not a lot to do with Brexit.

 

If anything Brexit has just shone a light on how ****ty some industries and jobs in this country are.

HGV driving being one of them, terrible working conditions and crap pay.  Is there any wonder British people refused to do this work?

 

Harvest work is another one.  While some roles do headline half decent money the reality is you're usually required to live on site, paying back some of your earnings to the farmer as rent, to live in a run down caravan.  Again, not something local folk were very interested in.

[Tony 10]

  

14 hours ago, Carbuncle said:

You seem to be arguing that Brexit was merely the last straw, the one that broke the camel's back and that being only the one straw it played only a minor role given the rest of the burden on the camel. This is specious.

 

We had a working camel back before Brexit. The EU27 are each possessed of a working camel. Our camel is broken and it is Brexit that did it.

 

14 hours ago, RJRB said:

@TonyYou may consider my viewpoint as being prejudice against Brexit,but to my mind it’s a reasoned decision after weighing up the pros and cons as I see them.

I voted to join the Common Market during my working life and welcomed the freedom of movement of people and goods within the EU.

I have never felt that I have lost any identity of being a U.K. citizen nor do I believe that our elected government and judiciary is shackled by a higher power.

I am not saying it’s perfect at all times but we had a seat at the top table of a major world trading bloc .

The cost of the realignment that you refer to will be borne by those at the bottom of the heap whilst we pursue the jam of tomorrow.Unfortunately that is how revolutions work.

And who has led us down this road.Not the people but the extreme right of a right wing party.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, El Cid said:

If you think the shortage is due to Brexit and its a good thing. Then its rational to assume that the same outcome could happen in other job roles, nurses, hospitality, doctors, dentists, midwifes, archetects, vets, construction workers, the list is endless.

So we will have staff shortages in hospitality, NHS, construction and the list goes on. How is the NHS going to recover from COVID and dentists services improve with a shortage of workers?

 

3 hours ago, L00b said:

They are not supposed to. Part and parcel of this ‘readjustment’ which Tony posts about.

 

3 hours ago, tzijlstra said:

Thanks Tony, I appreciate hearing your view, you are right, there was a drive to lower costs in the haulage industry, just as there was in other domestic industries, agriculture being a significant one. 

 

Two questions with my thoughts:

 

Who will pay for the increased costs?

 

The customer will pay. In countries with a higher wage level than the UK (And it isn't significantly higher except for Norway!) daily living costs are significantly higher. My brother pays around 200 Euros for his weekly shop, feeding a family of four. We pay under £100 for the two of us and that includes luxuries such as wine and other treats. A family of four can manage on around £120 a week and be comfortable in the UK. I fill up my 60 liter diesel tank for around £80, he fills up for around 120 euros. In short, it is admirable to want better wages for everybody, but it doesn't actually lead to an improved cost of living for those at the bottom of the rung. Foodbanks in the Netherlands are as prevalent as they are in the UK.

 

Where will the work force come from? 

 

This is sort of going round in circles, but the simple fact is that unemployment in the UK is low, very low. And has remained low even during times of 'mass immigration'. Farmers around us here in Angus are quite literally letting cabbages and potatoes rot away because they can not harvest due to staff shortage. The only logical consequence is that there needs to be a shift of workers from other areas into the areas that require them. That isn't going to happen in significant enough numbers. 

 

Then the final thought I offer on this: What stopped the UK from achieving better living wages for all whilst it was a part of the EU? The simple answer is: Nothing. The Living Wage project already led to an increase of the minimum wage and the minimum wage is and was decided by the UK government. It would have been very easy to adjust the fiscal system to ensure those under, let's say 30k a year, would have been better of. Brexit doesn't change anything about that, it is a fallacy to think it does. All Brexit has done is exacerbate staff shortages and proffer a false dream of increased wages. 'Maybe this time...' The Northern towns are going to feel this for a long time. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Anna B said:

But we 'Got Brexit Done!' didn't we?  Thanks to bungling Boris.... So everything now should be cushty.

 

 

You all just proved my point. None of you took the time to listen to the HGV drivers. No effort at coming to an understanding, just repeating your own prejudices. 

 

 

We can start again with my other question to wit the democratic deficit. Who were your MEPs, the party and what they broadly stand for in EU governance terms?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

None of you know the answer. None of you. Not one because you're all Googling it right now just so you can come back here to prove a point you don't actually know anything about in order to reinforce your prejudices. The Continuity Remain arguments are built on the simplest but most egregious lies. Move on folks, it's happened, accept it.

[Carbuncle 0]

4 hours ago, tzijlstra said:

Where will the work force come from? 

 

I don't think there will be a problem finding a work force though we will need to be patient as the market adjusts. Just as Brexit means we will obtain less from the EU, so the EU will obtain less from us. In other words, people doing stuff that the EU valued (but not enough to overcome the extra hassle post-Brexit) will end up being 'reallocated' to do the jobs we valued the EU for.

 

We had free movement of people. That lead to a one particular 'allocation' of people to jobs. The market will in time make a new allocation [Brexit consequence #1: we struggle in the short term]. However because the new allocation is constrained by new restrictions it will be less efficient [Brexit consequence #2: we are less efficient in the long term]. It's possible of course there are offsetting economic gains because the UK is able to fashion a better system although the UK may also add to the problems by fashioning a worse system.

 

Tony is of course busy making lemonade out of, in this case Brexit, lemons. Oh no, haulage is an awful place to work, has been for a long time, Brexit gives us an opportunity to fix it. It's a marvelously flexible argument. Can't get meat in the supermarket, now you can go vegan which is healthier. Can't fuel your car, now you can cycle to work and help save the planet. Can't get British fruit pickers, eat Spanish strawberries they're tastier. Can't find a genuine argument in favour of Brexit, it's an opportunity to practice your skills of intellectual dishonesty.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Carbuncle

[RJRB 688]

At the moment you seem to be obsessing about the shortage of HGV drivers and their working conditions.There are far worse jobs which pay minimum wages and recruitment to fill these positions will be problematical.

You are as guilty as anyone in failing to consider that the vote for Brexit has done nothing so far to improve life in the U.K.,and to my mind is unlikely to in my lifetime .Furthermore I see no benefit to my children and grandchildren in terms of their opportunities in employment and travel.

I accept that the Brexit vote carried the day but I don’t see any evidence at all that the hoped for benefits outweigh the consequences,some of which were recognised and ignored,and others which are becoming apparent.

All in the name of getting Brexit done on the back of a populist agenda.

Go back 5 years and precious few were agitating to leave the EU until Farage and the ERG factions posed a threat to the Conservative party.

Edited October 3, 2021 by RJRB

[tzijlstra 11]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

  You all just proved my point. None of you took the time to listen to the HGV drivers. No effort at coming to an understanding, just repeating your own prejudices. 

 

We can start again with my other question to wit the democratic deficit. Who were your MEPs, the party and what they broadly stand for in EU governance terms?

 

None of you know the answer. None of you. Not one because you're all Googling it right now just so you can come back here to prove a point you don't actually know anything about in order to reinforce your prejudices. The Continuity Remain arguments are built on the simplest but most egregious lies. Move on folks, it's happened, accept it.

Tony, I am a bit disappointed with that response. I provided you with a considered response and you chose to ignore it. 

My last MEP was Magid Magid, the first time I voted Green instead of LibDem in an election in this country. I voted for him because he had a sensible response to Brexit (in my view) - it is a self-inflicted wound that will harm the most vulnerable in society for years to come. 

 

I have investigated the views of HGV drivers, although not through the Vox Populi method you provided, the headline figure is simple: Retention of HGV drivers in the industry is appalling, that is the result of the job being very hard for not a lot of reward. I explained to you, or at least believe I did, why Brexit isn't and wasn't the answer. I ask of you again: What would have been valid measures to improve the situation of the poorest in society and why could they not have been taken as part of the EU? 

 

Johnson is supposedly going to spell out what 'levelling up' actually means. I am awaiting the outcome with bated breath, not. But for folks like you, harping on about the benefits of Brexit for, for example, HGV drivers, you'd better hope he is about to come out with some stellar policies that wouldn't have been possible whilst part of the EU because the tide is definitely beginning to turn against this Tory government. 

11 minutes ago, Carbuncle said:

I don't think there will be a problem finding a work force though we will need to be patient as the market adjusts. Just as Brexit means we will obtain less from the EU, so the EU will obtain less from us. In other words, people doing stuff that the EU valued (but not enough to overcome the extra hassle post-Brexit) will end up being 'reallocated' to do the jobs we valued the EU for.

 

We had free movement of people. That lead to a one particular 'allocation' of people to jobs. The market will in time make a new allocation [Brexit consequence #1: we struggle in the short term]. However because the new allocation is constrained by new restrictions it will be less efficient [Brexit consequence #2: we are less efficient in the long term]. It's possible of course there are offsetting economic gains because the UK is able to fashion a better system although the UK may also add to the problems by fashioning a worse system.

 

Tony is of course busy making lemonade out of, in this case Brexit, lemons. Oh no, haulage is an awful place to work, has been for a long time, Brexit gives us an opportunity to fix it. It's a marvelously flexible argument. Can't get meat in the supermarket, now you can go vegan which is healthier. Can't fuel your car, now you can cycle to work and help save the planet. Can't get British fruit pickers, eat Spanish strawberries they're tastier.

There is a limit to the amount of people in this country, there is a minimum number of people required to carry out all the functions required to keep the economy productive. A nation needs to have an economy that generates a bigger income than that it costs to run that economy and the government alongside it. 

 

Johnson is a classic liberal, he wants to reduce the cost to run the economy and the government (eventually, Covid cost him a lot on that front). So his vision of Brexit is a lot like the way the US is set to operate: Low taxes, small government, high income, high cost to individuals.