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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

Vaati

Let me make this perfectly clear - any personal attacks will get you a suspension. The moderating team is not going to continually issue warnings. If you cannot remain civil and post within forum rules then do not bother to contribute.

 

In addition to remoaner we are also not going to allow the use of libdums or liebore - if you cannot behave like adults and post without recourse to these childish insults then please refrain from posting. If you have a problem with this then you all know where the helpdesk is. 

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1 hour ago, KinderKid said:

This is fantastic, the whole argument in a nutshell 😁

 

Your premise seems to be that, if you don't win elections domestically you should cede power to a supranational organisation which will enforce your opinion without the approval of the electorate. It is a dangerous idea to say that voters should be protected from their own opinions and rides roughshod over the basic principles of democracy. 

 

It is for this exact reason that the electorate took their chance to leave whilst they could. 

The euro? Schengen?

 

Not very good at riding roughshod over the electorate 😎

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8 minutes ago, Longcol said:

The euro? Schengen?

 

Not very good at riding roughshod over the electorate 😎

I don't follow?

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13 hours ago, KinderKid said:

The obvious answer here is to campaign to bring in similar legislation at the next election if you are unhappy with it. 

the legislation to protect working hours is already in place

13 hours ago, KinderKid said:

It is a bizarre argument to say that only the EU can protect worker's rights

evidence suggests that the conservative party is poor at protecting workers rights. i can't bring to mind any improvement in workers rights which has come from the conservative party which wasn't a result of EU legislation, can you? 

 

the conservative party of the day opposed the introduction of the minimum wage. they seem to have become reluctant converts to the idea since, because it's rather important to the people who they want to vote for them.

13 hours ago, KinderKid said:

 We should not be reliant on a "benevolent" EU with a worrying attitude to democracy to protect our rights for us.

Not quite sure why you find a commitment to democracy and the rule of law worrying. Perhaps we should be finding your attitude to democracy worrying.

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44 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

the legislation to protect working hours is already in place

evidence suggests that the conservative party is poor at protecting workers rights. i can't bring to mind any improvement in workers rights which has come from the conservative party which wasn't a result of EU legislation, can you? 

Why does it always come back to the Conservatives? My point here is that if the British government is the supreme body, the electorate has complete control of who is in power. Yes, at present that is the Tories, but it could be Labour, Liberal or any other. If voters aren't happy with the Conservative's attitudes to worker's rights, they can install a different government. This is not the case with the EU. 

 

44 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

Not quite sure why you find a commitment to democracy and the rule of law worrying. Perhaps we should be finding your attitude to democracy worrying.

I'm unsure what you're getting at here. Where have I challenged a commitment to democracy?  

By bringing back powers to Westminster, the electorate can directly influence policy by electing MP's. 

In the EU, yes we had elections for European Parliament, but we were never allowed to vote on the Commission or Council which set the political direction and brought forward legislation. 

 

I suspect the reason the EU was so popular in certain circles is that it brought forward an agenda which was popular with a minority of voters unable to pass it through the Commons.

Edited by KinderKid

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34 minutes ago, KinderKid said:

Why does it always come back to the Conservatives? My point here is that if the British government is the supreme body, the electorate has complete control of who is in power. Yes, at present that is the Tories, but it could be Labour, Liberal or any other. If voters aren't happy with the Conservative's attitudes to worker's rights, they can install a different government. This is not the case with the EU. 

 

I'm unsure what you're getting at here. Where have I challenged a commitment to democracy?  

By bringing back powers to Westminster, the electorate can directly influence policy by electing MP's. 

In the EU, yes we had elections for European Parliament, but we were never allowed to vote on the Commission or Council which set the political direction and brought forward legislation. 

 

I suspect the reason the EU was so popular in certain circles is that it brought forward an agenda which was popular with a minority of voters unable to pass it through the Commons.

tell us again who chooses the EU commission or EU council? could it be those MEPs we vote for?

and how they are made up?

 

could they be chosen by the ones we vote in?

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2 hours ago, KinderKid said:

Why does it always come back to the Conservatives? My point here is that if the British government is the supreme body, the electorate has complete control of who is in power. Yes, at present that is the Tories, but it could be Labour, Liberal or any other. If voters aren't happy with the Conservative's attitudes to worker's rights, they can install a different government. This is not the case with the EU. 

because the conservatives generally do what they can to erode workers rights. the only people floating ideas to erode important workers rights seem to be conservatives, you generally dont see the labour party or the lin dems floating those ideas. 

Quote

 

I'm unsure what you're getting at here. Where have I challenged a commitment to democracy?  

By bringing back powers to Westminster, the electorate can directly influence policy by electing MP's. 

In the EU, yes we had elections for European Parliament, but we were never allowed to vote on the Commission or Council which set the political direction and brought forward legislation. 

 

I suspect the reason the EU was so popular in certain circles is that it brought forward an agenda which was popular with a minority of voters unable to pass it through the Commons.

i believe the council is actually the heads of state of each member nation, though they generally delegate responsibility down to the ministers of whatever areas are under discussion at a particular meeting. so you do vote for our members on the council. 

 

the comissioners are appointed by the council and approved by the parliament,  the rest of the comission are career civil servants. it can't do anything without the approval of the council and parliament. adding an election for the comissioners to the poll wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea,  the downside is that an elected comissioner uses the "i'm just as elected as you" as a justification for trying to force an item through the council and parliament.  

 

an what agenda are you refering too? 

Edited by andyofborg

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2 hours ago, melthebell said:

Shock brexit? not really, you were warned, but obviously it was all just "project fear"

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/17/shock-brexit-charges-are-hurting-us-say-small-british-businesses

It doesn’t say in the article whether Mr Paul  voted for Brexit and finds the reality a problem,or whether he was against it.

Tariffs,taxes and red tape which had been successfully minimised over the years with our largest trading partners is now back with a bang,and the promise of new markets just does not apply to the majority of businesses.

As Gove admitted exports to mainland Europe will become more difficult before there is an improvement,but its hard to see how this improvement can be any better than the deals that we have discarded.

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6 minutes ago, RJRB said:

It doesn’t say in the article whether Mr Paul  voted for Brexit and finds the reality a problem,or whether he was against it.

Seems to be a common theme. I've seen many articles of a similar nature recently, none gave any indication of how the person who's business is going down the tubes voted.

 

6 minutes ago, RJRB said:

As Gove admitted exports to mainland Europe will become more difficult before there is an improvement,but its hard to see how this improvement can be any better than the deals that we have discarded.

In respect of the costs and overheads reported, there won't be any improvement, this is the new normal.

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22 minutes ago, Magilla said:

Seems to be a common theme. I've seen many articles of a similar nature recently, none gave any indication of how the person who's business is going down the tubes voted.

 

Don't suppose that really matters any more. 

 

While it might be nice for a "we told you so" moment for  those who voted leave and their business is failing/failing. It's still sad because of the effect on employees, suppliers, the wider community many of whom will have voted to remain. 

 

The government and its apologists may try to pass the blame by saying everyone knew there would be changes for months. The final deal was done at the last minute, in the middle of a pandemic and in the run up to christmas. Hardly the best conditions for rebuilding your business model.  Until the final terms were known then the range of possible outcomes was too great for any business, especially a small business to seriously prepare for any of them. 

 

The no-deal option, beloved of many on here would have had a far worse effect on the fishing industry by basically closing off the route via Denmark. 

 

Perhaps what's needed is a massive advertising campaign to encourage british people to eat more sea food. It is a reasonably healthy source of protein and other essential nutrients. It's not that hard to cook either. 

 

 

Edited by andyofborg

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11 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

Don't suppose that really matters any more. 

 

While it might be nice for a "we told you so" moment for  those who voted leave and their business is failing/failing. It's still sad because of the effect on employees, suppliers, the wider community many of whom will have voted to remain. 

 

The government and its apologists may try to pass the blame by saying everyone knew there would be changes for months. The final deal was done at the last minute, in the middle of a pandemic and in the run up to christmas. Hardly the best conditions for rebuilding your business model.  Until the final terms were known then the range of possible outcomes was too great for any business, especially a small business to seriously prepare for any of them. 

 

The no-deal option, beloved of many on here would have had a far worse effect on the fishing industry by basically closing off the route via Denmark. 

 

Perhaps what's needed is a massive advertising campaign to encourage british people to eat more sea food. It is a reasonably healthy source of protein and other essential nutrients. It's not that hard to cook either. 

 

 

My bold. 

 

Excellent idea.  Much better for the environment & balance of payments as well. 

Edited by Baron99

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9 minutes ago, Baron99 said:

My bold. 

 

Excellent idea.  Much better for the environment & balance of payments as well. 

But to be followed by a campaign for roast lamb and lamb rogan josh.

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