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Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

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2 minutes ago, West 77 said:

All very amusing. No UK Prime Minister had any plans to leave the EU before the 2016 EU referendum.  UK bookies always had the UK as comfortable favourites to stay in the EU.

 

POLEXIT

 

ITALEXIT

 

HUEXIT

 

FREXIT

I’m not sure why you are so interested in the composition of the EU now that a Brexit agreement has been negotiated...supposedly.

Still its good to see that you continue to consider the consequences,and one will be that any other country will think long and hard when they see the reality  of leaving the EU.

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3 hours ago, West 77 said:

It looks like things are going from bad to worse for the EU.  Now the Polish Prime Minister is accusing the EU of blackmail over the payment of covid 19 related funds.  We should all be lighting candles for the Polish people again. Thank goodness the UK are out and are an independent sovereign nation again.  

 

POLEXIT

The Polish Prime Minister backed himself into a corner that he now can’t get out of.
 

Law & Justice’s populism gradually morphed into ultranationalist initiatives that recently culminated into having a kangaroo court defer community law to Polish law. Which is a camel back-breaking straw for the EU, hence suspension of EU funding.
 

Now Morawiecki doesn’t know how to put the fire out, and he knows he has to, because EU membership enjoys an 80% approval rate in Poland.

 

Polexit? Law & Justice Partyexit, more like.
 

It’s nearly as funny to watch, as the Tories over the Protocol.

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38 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The Polish PM is simply backing is own domestic judges who question that EU law should over rule Polish law.  It all about sovereignty which was the main reason the UK electorate voted to leave the EU. I doubt very much 80% of Polish people believe EU law should take precedence over Polish law. Poland are a proud nation.

It isn’t.
 

Every EU member state is, and always was, sovereign.
 

What every EU member state did, on acceding membership, was to pool some amount of sovereignty with the others, in fields of legal competence required to make the club work: trade, finance, working rules, <etc>
 

It’s not a coercive system, it is based 100% on wilful consent: no country was ever compelled to join the EU (i.e. accept this pooling of sovereignty), no country is ever compelled to stay in it (as the UK just demonstrated).

 

The flip side is that, like any club, it has rules, that must be adhered to.
 

A fundamental rule since the very first day, is that community law has primacy over national law in those fields of competence I mentioned above. It always did, even before the Maastricht Treaty, otherwise the club can’t work.

 

Another fundament rule, is that if you breach the rules, and continue to do so well past warning to unbreach them, eventually there are sanctions. A country can choose to not breach the rules and avoid those sanctions, either by adhering to the rules, or by exiting the jurisdiction altogether (the EU).

 

(of course, there is a parallel flipside, well obvious after all these consequences threads, which is that leaving the EU/club, means not being allowed into the club nor using its facilities anymore, irrespective of the rippling consequences for the ex-member…hey, it’s a members club, not a charity 😉)

 

But Poland has decided to breach the rules without exiting. So now the sanctions start. Guess what: Poland can no more have its cake and eating it, than the UK could. Who could have guessed? 

 

The Polish PM can shag his flag as fervently as the most die-hard no-deal Leave voter: ain’t going to make a blind bit of difference to the fact that the current will of the Polish people is to stay in the EU and that, to do so, the Polish PM must restore the primacy of community law the same as it’s been for the last 17 years.
 

The alternative is, starved of EU cash overnight, then EU support and services, then (…) as sanctions mount over time, Poland starts rapidly coming off at the socio-economic seams because, notwithstanding its supercharged economic development in those last 17 years,  it is still a small and very fragile economy.
 

There is no blackmail whatsoever: Poland is completely free to leave the EU and take its chances. But it isn’t owed a free meal if it does, anymore than the UK was. Hard choices, hard consequences, hey-ho.
 

I’ll hazard that you understand all that well, by now. If not, then really you should. Your getting hold of those sunlit uplands and unicorns depends on it.

Edited by L00b

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9 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The issue is the Polish judiciary believe the EU have exceeded the agreed legal powers granted by member countries in the various treaties over the years.

The Disturbing Campaign Against Poland’s Judges:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/disturbing-campaign-against-polish-judges/605623/

 

The Collapse of Judicial Independence in Poland:

https://judicature.duke.edu/articles/the-collapse-of-judicial-independence-in-poland-a-cautionary-tale/

 

 

Once again, you highlight that you really don't have a clue what's going on!

 

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46 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The issue is the Polish judiciary believe the EU have exceeded the agreed legal powers granted by member countries in the various treaties over the years.  

The Polish judges believe wrong, without a shred of a doubt on orders from the Polish executive which, through appointing them in the recent past, has severely compromised the independence of that judiciary in Poland (edit - per Magilla’s post).
 

The EU has not exceeded any agreed legal powers: the ruling is attacking CJEU case law on judicial independence, which does not expand EU competences at all, moreover wherein the EU has no policy-making competences in this area at all. There is a clear difference between competence (to change/influence national law) and compliance (of national law making with fundamental EU principles, one of which is the separation of judicial and executive powers).

 

There would be no point to even having a CJEU, if it was not allowed to make rulings on what judicial independence means, as the expression is codified in EU treaties and other statutes.
 

Poland knew this well when they signed up to the EU byway back when, and nothing has changed one iota since.  
 

This is just another case of a populist government playing billy-big-b****cks to their domestic audience, and letting their rethoric carry them on to eventually step on their appendage. Boo-hoo.

46 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Of course it's blackmail because no member state can leave the EU overnight. The UK were never given a free meal or expected a free meal during its time as a member of the EU.

Poland can either adhere to the rules of the club (by keeping its judiciary independent, rather than politically malleable, and restoring primacy of EU law in areas of pooled competence), or can suffer the sanctioning consequences of continuing to breach the rules, or can leave the club altogether if they’re so bothered about competences which the EU hasn’t actually got.
 

Them’s their choices, all are fully sovereign (Poland can pick whichever whenever) so I’m not seeing any coercion there whatsoever.
 

So you’ll have to explain to me how that is ‘blackmail’?

Edited by L00b

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8 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Well done for finding two articles to attempt to discredit the Polish judiciary system.

Desperate stuff...

 

It wasn't hard, there are literally hundreds articles, from all parts of the globe.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter... if you can find any! :hihi:

 

8 minutes ago, West 77 said:

However, there is no mention of the issue I stated or nothing to support that the EU haven't exceeded legal powers granted to them by member countries in the various treaties over the years.

There is nothing that would stand up in an independent court suggesting they have either.

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55 minutes ago, West 77 said:

Yes desperate stuff on your part by posting links to discredit the Polish judiciary system.

It's largely a universal view, not just mine.

 

Feel free to post articles to counter that view, if you can find any.

 

Quote

The ruling party in Poland is called the "Law and Justice" party and it isn't really a surprise that a party going by that name has made changes to their judiciary system while in power.

If they're really the "Law and Justice" party, why have they spent a significant amount of time undermining the rule of law, justice, and free press?

 

Quote

It's for the Polish people to decide who rules their own country and what laws are made or changed.

Indeed, which is why PiS is losing support hand over fist, already lost their majority and it's unlikely it will continue in office for the remainder of this legislature.

 

If an election were called today, they would lose!

 

Quote

Neither the EU or the Polish courts are independent.  There will be no independent courts making any ruling on this issue.

Nonsense.

 

Quote

The real issue is sovereignty and the Polish Government are correct to challenge the EU court ruling and seeking to ensure the Polish legal system is respected by the EU.

They knew what they were signing up to.

 

Then there's Brexit, a permanent shambles no one wants to copy... :?

Edited by Magilla

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1 minute ago, West 77 said:

I'm not here to support the current Polish government or to defend their legal system.

Just as well, because the Polish government just spent the last few years undermining and hobbling their legal system :?

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

However, the current government was democratically elected and they deserve to be respected by the EU  just like every EU member's government should be respected.

They are, if they want to renege on treaties they've signed, they can... but they must accept the consequences of doing so.

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

You continue to scribble nonsense.

You lack the cognitive ability to understand the issues at hand. :thumbsup:

 

1 minute ago, West 77 said:

Poland have been in the EU for over seventeen years and the same people will not be in power today who were when they joined or when other treaties were agreed.  Any government is entitled to get their lawyers to look at previous treaties and to ask for their interpretations to discover whether any past agreement affects current domestic law or prevents them from making changes.  

...those changes have consequences that are known in advance, as such your claims of "blackmail" fall flat. :?

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1 hour ago, West 77 said:

Your support for the EU is no surprise.  It's only your bias opinion that the Polish judges believe wrong.  The rule of law is rarely black or white.

 

I'm not here to teach you the English or Polish definition of blackmail. It's no surprise to me as a fanatical supporter of the EU that you have a problem recognising  blackmail.  I guess supporters of the Mafia also have problems recognising blackmail.

 

 

Yes desperate stuff on your part by posting links to discredit the Polish judiciary system.  The ruling party in Poland is called the "Law and Justice" party and it isn't really a surprise that a party going by that name has made changes to their judiciary system while in power. It's for the Polish people to decide who rules their own country and what laws are made or changed.

 

Neither the EU or the Polish courts are independent.  There will be no independent courts making any ruling on this issue.  The real issue is sovereignty and the Polish Government are correct to challenge the EU court ruling and seeking to ensure the Polish legal system is respected by the EU.

My “support for the EU” has nothing to do with this Polish sub-topic whatsoever.

 

You should be invoking my support for the rule of law and the separation of executive, judiciary and legislative powers instead.
 

If you had any basic understanding of these concepts. Which, looking at your last few posts (and now your resorting to ad hominem attacks), very clearly you do not.

 

Beside parroting anti-EU disinformation and empty slogans, why do you contribute to this thread?

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18 hours ago, West 77 said:

Comedy Gold.  Not only are you anti British and  anti democracy, you're also anti free speech. Napoleon would be so proud of you. 

I’m hardly “anti-free speech”, when I’m asking you an open question about your contributions, and not about your privilege to post, am I? 🙄
 

Posting “because you can” is a kindergarten-grade answer, can’t you do better?
 

That second section after your ad hominem in your last post, demonstrates zero understanding of the legal facts and arguments underpinning that Polish case, and of basic EU constitutional law. Even after I tried to bootstrap your knowledge about it in my last two posts.
 

So as usual, you’re not interested in debating anything that doesn’t conform with your twisted world view, still less to educate yourself about facts for informing your opinion.
 

Ergo, back to my original question.

 

In the meantime, have a new Brexit ‘win’:

 

How is this a ‘win’, you may ask?
 

Well, by increasing GB’s dependence on food imports, and given the gravity effect of international trade (under which most import/export is always done with your nearest neighbours), the British population is highly likely to maintain healthier food supplies from the EU27 (and particularly Ireland), given that MEPs have banned factory farming 👍🏻
 

Sucks a bit if you’re a British farmer, sure. Especially a young one. But well, hey…omelette, eggs and all that.

Edited by L00b

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6 minutes ago, West 77 said:

You still continue to bury your head in the sand regarding the EU and believe everything they do is correct while any member state who challenges any of their rulings is wrong. I've acknowledged the UK played a big part in creating the monster that the EU has turned into by failing to challenge their decisions and failing to use the UK veto over the years while they were a member.

There is a very clear difference between “believing everything the EU do is correct while any member state who challenges any of their rulings is wrong” and “considering Poland’s ruling to be wrong”.
 

I don’t think you’ve appreciated that difference yet. Let me know when you do.

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