Consequences Of Brexit [Part 9] Read First Post Before Posting

[Magilla 510]

4 hours ago, Tony said:

[RJRB 688]

7 hours ago, carosio said:

It's one major step away from a United (or federated) States of Europe (unless that's what some want)- witness the succession of treaties since 1975.

 Not a problem at all for me.

What’s so bad? Oh it’s that Sovereignty thing again isn’t it.

[tzijlstra 11]

12 hours ago, Tony said:

Well indeed. So what exactly is going on if there are more drivers now than pre-Covid?

 

If that really is the situation it has the hallmark of a manufactured crisis. That opens up a whole other can of worms about who? And why?

 

Any thoughts?

Not sure if this has been answered Tony, but the simple fact is that when the UK was part of the EU and the single market, the shortage of drivers was compensated by drivers from other parts of that single market. Leaving the single market has shut down that mechanism and therefore exposed the shortage of drivers in the UK as a market on its own. Other countries in the EU with an existing shortage of drivers of that nationality (for example the Netherlands) don't suffer this problem as they still have access to drivers from EU countries with a 'surplus'. 

 

[El Cid 220]

6 hours ago, Delbow said:

LOL. Maybe venture outside of Wetherspoons occasionally, if you can manage to stand.

West77 is very predictable, I think he is a Government computer robot

22 minutes ago, tzijlstra said:

Not sure if this has been answered Tony, but the simple fact is that when the UK was part of the EU and the single market, the shortage of drivers was compensated by drivers from other parts of that single market. Leaving the single market has shut down that mechanism and therefore exposed the shortage of drivers in the UK as a market on its own. Other countries in the EU with an existing shortage of drivers of that nationality (for example the Netherlands) don't suffer this problem as they still have access to drivers from EU countries with a 'surplus'.

That is exactly how Brexit was meant to work, that was the plan all along. I cannot understand why Johnson didnt plan for it with more training; the measures that were brought in this week should have been done months ago.

Bring back Cummings, the brains behind Johnson.

[L00b 441]

10 hours ago, El Cid said:

That is exactly how Brexit was meant to work, that was the plan all along. I cannot understand why Johnson didnt plan for it with more training; the measures that were brought in this week should have been done months ago.

Planning for likely consequences of Brexit and enacting measures to mitigate them early, such as training more British nationals as HGV drivers in your example, required risk-assessing and acknowledging negative Brexit outcomes to begin with, to determine which mitigating measures to enact and when…

 

…instead of screaming ‘Project Fear! Project Fear!’ at the time. And ever since.

 

Some of us have working memories, and understand perfectly well why British politicians far and wide, not just Johnson and his ERG clique, did no planning whatsoever, and are still testiculating with e.g. Article 16 threats and making things still worse for the UK right now (the annual Tory conference nears 😉), instead of acting in the best interests of the British people.

Edited October 1, 2021 by L00b

[Tony 10]

11 hours ago, tzijlstra said:

Not sure if this has been answered Tony, but the simple fact is that when the UK was part of the EU and the single market, the shortage of drivers was compensated by drivers from other parts of that single market. Leaving the single market has shut down that mechanism and therefore exposed the shortage of drivers in the UK as a market on its own. Other countries in the EU with an existing shortage of drivers of that nationality (for example the Netherlands) don't suffer this problem as they still have access to drivers from EU countries with a 'surplus'. 

 

Looking at the situation across the continent that is possibly the historic situation where of course we know that hauliers  shifted their operations to low wage parts of the EU ((Poland / Latvia / Hungary etc) and took advantage of free movement, undermining drivers pay and conditions in the richer nations. I hope we'll agree on that, it's not very controversial. 

 

What we seem to have now is that enough of those workers in the richer nations have dropped out of  the employment market to make the richer nations depend on workers from poorer nations.

 

The trouble is that the poorer nations have been getting richer, which in itself is great, but it does mean that the supply of men (for it is 99% men, usually white native men) willing to suffer the poor pay and conditions of driving HGVs is diminishing while demand increases. Then we get the pandemic and those men (and 1% women) decamp back to their families in home nations. 

 

There are certainly many minor contributory issues, including Brexit of course, and shipping, and container shortages, and fuel availability, and traffic density, and paperwork, and distributed distribution breakdowns, etc, etc. But, when we see that Poland has a worse HGV driver shortage than the UK we can make a few direct comparisons and I feel it's important to see the whole picture and not just leap on Brexit because somebody has a chip on their shoulder about it. 

 

It needs to be said time and time again because some people are oddly emotionally attached to the EU political construct, but Brexit is a process, not an event and if truth be told there is no end or outcome, just a different situation which will change organically over the years. There are ups and downs but the direction of travel has been set. Micro complaints we hear about Brexit really are First World problems and hardly worth thinking about on a macro level.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Tony

[Carbuncle 0]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

There are certainly many minor contributory issues, including Brexit of course, and shipping, and container shortages, and fuel availability, and traffic density, and paperwork, and distributed distribution breakdowns, etc, etc. But, when we see that Poland has a worse HGV driver shortage than the UK we can make a few direct comparisons and I feel it's important to see the whole picture and not just leap on Brexit because somebody has a chip on their shoulder about it. 

 

It doesn't matter that in your assessment Brexit is only a "minor" contributor or that you care to repeat the propaganda about Poland's "shortage" of HGV drivers we're the country with the shortfall in haulage, we're the country with the shortage at the pumps and with gaps on the shelves.

 

Ah but finally, an admission that Brexit plays a role ... now doesn't that feel so much better.

[tzijlstra 11]

8 hours ago, Tony said:

It needs to be said time and time again because some people are oddly emotionally attached to the EU political construct, but Brexit is a process, not an event and if truth be told there is no end or outcome, just a different situation which will change organically over the years. There are ups and downs but the direction of travel has been set. Micro complaints we hear about Brexit really are First World problems and hardly worth thinking about on a macro level.

When a problem is the clear result of the decision to exit the EU than that can be named. Regardless of whether Brexit is a process or just or anything else. That isn't a 'micro complaint', it is pointing out the obvious.

 

Another obvious point is that Brexit supporters are being asked to explain what post-EU Britain will look like, not you per se, but certainly our politicians should be open and explain what benefits we are to reap of this new-found state of existence. I am struggling so far to name a single benefit, but I can list plenty of negative impacts. Consequences of Brexit, flip the conversation and tell me and other remainers what wonderful things we are going to get once these adjustments to society are over. 

 

 

[Tony 10]

2 hours ago, tzijlstra said:

When a problem is the clear result of the decision to exit the EU than that can be named. Regardless of whether Brexit is a process or just or anything else. That isn't a 'micro complaint', it is pointing out the obvious.

 

Another obvious point is that Brexit supporters are being asked to explain what post-EU Britain will look like, not you per se, but certainly our politicians should be open and explain what benefits we are to reap of this new-found state of existence. I am struggling so far to name a single benefit, but I can list plenty of negative impacts. Consequences of Brexit, flip the conversation and tell me and other remainers what wonderful things we are going to get once these adjustments to society are over. 

 

 

I think the elimination of the democratic deficit is more than enough.

I could, and can go on but we’ll not be down in the weeds with lightweight Remain points about immigration, gammon, empires, Wetherspoons and all the other things that Remainers are obsessed with. 
 

We can do the democratic deficit first if you like.

[L00b 441]

Oh my, this should be good 😁

[RJRB 688]

43 minutes ago, Tony said:

I think the elimination of the democratic deficit is more than enough.

I could, and can go on but we’ll not be down in the weeds with lightweight Remain points about immigration, gammon, empires, Wetherspoons and all the other things that Remainers are obsessed with. 
 

We can do the democratic deficit first if you like.

We are agog

[Tony 10]

I’m waiting