mort 10 #1057 Posted October 26, 2020 Sigh. Behave like grown ups please and stop the tit for tat nonsense Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Gormenghast 58 #1058 Posted October 26, 2020 4 hours ago, L00b said: In financial terms, none whatsoever. In personal terms, the same as every other immigrant anywhere and at anytime: more opportunities than where I'd been. And until 2016: a country of adoption, of sorts. Perhaps the leave voters see there will be more opportunities in future outside the EU than in it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Car Boot 10 #1059 Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) Some Remainers on here are portraying the EU as a protection against capitalist globalisation. When in fact the EU has been one of the main, if not THE main, players in the drive for the globalisation of capital, goods and services, and the free movement of a nomadic, poorer class of workers. Edited October 26, 2020 by Car Boot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Car Boot 10 #1060 Posted October 26, 2020 The EU will not protect us from the adverse effects of capitalist globalisation. The EU is the main force for capitalist globalisation! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
tinfoilhat 11 #1061 Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, retep said: Now prove the rest. Would it make a spec of difference to either of you if I did? It's not like they hasn't been links on these threads a hundred times before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Organgrinder 1,946 #1062 Posted October 26, 2020 27 minutes ago, tinfoilhat said: Would it make a spec of difference to either of you if I did? It's not like they hasn't been links on these threads a hundred times before. You are quite correct - it won't make any difference at all to our views but, as you claim they are lies then it's your job to prove that they are. I see that none of you are rushing to explain how we can't manage without Europe when 168 other nations manage perfectly well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Arnold_Lane 0 #1063 Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Organgrinder said: You are quite correct - it won't make any difference at all to our views but, as you claim they are lies then it's your job to prove that they are. I see that none of you are rushing to explain how we can't manage without Europe when 168 other nations manage perfectly well. Well, that's wrong isn't it? You didn't prove they were true when you first posted them. Claims made without proof can be dismissed without proof. Edited October 26, 2020 by Arnold_Lane Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Organgrinder 1,946 #1064 Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Arnold_Lane said: Well, that's wrong isn't it? You didn't prove they were true when you first posted them. Claims made without proof can be dismissed without proof. Very well then, but I'll have to take them one by one as I don't have time to spend all night on a discussion where the other side are just acting daft and pretending they don't know. 1 - The benefits I wanted were - No foreign court making and enforcing laws on the people and the government of this country. No foreign countries telling us who we have to let in and out of our borders including criminals. Do you deny that the EU have made laws which have over-ridden those of the UK legal system? and Do you deny that the EU's laws have made us have an open border system where we could not refuse entry to people from any other European country? If you want to dismiss my claims anyway, that's up to you but it doesn't alter the fact that none of you can explain why we can't trade when we are out of Europe when the rest of the world can. Edited October 26, 2020 by Organgrinder left last line off Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
RJRB 688 #1065 Posted October 26, 2020 19 minutes ago, Organgrinder said: You are quite correct - it won't make any difference at all to our views but, as you claim they are lies then it's your job to prove that they are. I see that none of you are rushing to explain how we can't manage without Europe when 168 other nations manage perfectly well. It’s how the different views believe how we will manage better. Remainers believe that we will be a stronger economy within the EU and apparently you do not.Or perhaps you think that any downside is a price worth paying in the name of Sovereignty.I don’t. Which of the remaining 168 countries ,excluding of course those who are members of other trading blocs do you see as the model that we should aspire to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Organgrinder 1,946 #1066 Posted October 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, RJRB said: It’s how the different views believe how we will manage better. Remainers believe that we will be a stronger economy within the EU and apparently you do not.Or perhaps you think that any downside is a price worth paying in the name of Sovereignty.I don’t. Which of the remaining 168 countries ,excluding of course those who are members of other trading blocs do you see as the model that we should aspire to. Exactly, how the different views believe how we will manage better. I'm glad that you now acknowledge that we can have different views and if you look at my posts, I have never claimed that we will manage BETTER. My belief is that we will struggle at first but that we will do much better than Europe and and subsequentially we will do better. I also believe that yes, a temporary downside is worth paying in the name of Soveriegnty so again, I differ from your views. I am not choosing countries as models unless the government wants to pay me a high salary for doing their job. I simply point out that those countries all manage to trade without being in Europe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
tinfoilhat 11 #1067 Posted October 26, 2020 15 minutes ago, Organgrinder said: Very well then, but I'll have to take them one by one as I don't have time to spend all night on a discussion where the other side are just acting daft and pretending they don't know. 1 - The benefits I wanted were - No foreign court making and enforcing laws on the people and the government of this country. No foreign countries telling us who we have to let in and out of our borders including criminals. Do you deny that the EU have made laws which have over-ridden those of the UK legal system? and Do you deny that the EU's laws have made us have an open border system where we could not refuse entry to people from any other European country? If you want to dismiss my claims anyway, that's up to you but it doesn't alter the fact that none of you can explain why we can't trade when we are out of Europe when the rest of the world can. The UK isn't leaving the European court of human rights. What laws - that the UK didn't vote for - are you looking forward to seeing the end of? And, for all the call for sovereignty, we aren't making a deal with the EU that the US won't approve first (ie one when we aren't breaking the good Friday agreement). Of course we can trade with the rest of the world. We always could. Ergo we can trade with Europe without a deal with all the tariffs that go with that. Do you think thats preferable? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
L00b 441 #1068 Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Gormenghast said: Perhaps the leave voters see there will be more opportunities in future outside the EU than in it. Perhaps some of them do, indeed. If so, it would be good of them to explain the logic behind that foresight (I assume there is some logic to it). There hasn't been one like them in here since unbeliever, 4 years ago. He went very quiet in 2017, IIRC. No rush now, anyway. The UK's out. And 67 days away from a slim FTA (hard Brexit) or no deal (hardest Brexit). Johnson's latest can-kicking, putting the deal/no-deal decision at the US election outcome in November very much looks like playing the clock for no deal to me. But well. Brexiters still believe all will be well. Ex-Remainers are turning Rejoiners, knowing well that it will be a long game. And Europeans are past caring. Them leave voters better hang on to those beliefs. Edited October 26, 2020 by L00b Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...