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South Of Sheffield Traffic Madness

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On 28/12/2019 at 13:37, Planner1 said:

Many of the suburbs are uphill from the city centre, but you see a lot of people cycling it.

Define "a lot". Of all the people who travel into the city centre to work or shop, what percentage of them cycle? You seem to be claiming that cycling and walking are the best thing since sliced bread and cars are effectively the spawn of Satan, so please provide figures to support your views, given your claimed association with the responsible officers.

 

Personally I don't see "a lot" of cyclists, rather "a tiny number, just barely into double figures on a very good day", would be a far more accurate description based on the roads I use to get to/from the city centre. Several of them are very steep, I'd hesitate to walk up them, let alone cycle and certainly do neither at my age. I'm not aware of any busses that run on a few of them either, so public transport might not be a viable option either. There's certainly no trams in sight that I could use either.

 

I'm concerned that the Manchester report you quoted elsewhere seems to indicate that no matter what is done, bus usage is set to fall. Which makes one wonder whether busses are in any way, shape or form actually "sustainable" and why so much public money is thus being thrown at them. Indeed, one could argue that road widening, including the demolition of properties that you seem horrified at the prospect of is what is actually needed to improve traffic flow. Rather than, for example,  the mess that is the route into the city from Meadowhead, a single carriageway road that cries out to be a dual carriageway yet SCC flee from the very idea. Because, you say, it's apparently "too expensive". More expensive than killing off the economic activity in the city centre and thus the long term interests of the city? With that attitude, it makes one grateful that the officers at SCC were not present when the motorway network was proposed last century - they'd be against it on cost grounds alone no doubt, short-sighted that they are.

 

Perhaps "road widening on the cheap", by of doing away with bus lanes, opening road space to all traffic might improve matters generally, rather than the tinkering around the edges on the back of discrete commercial developments approach that SCC seem to currently operate under. One can't help but think that both the officers and councillors at SCC suffer from a distinct lack of vision.

 

You also say the politicians make the decisions, which is true only to the extent that they make their decisions based on what council officers tell them. Are you sure they are told all options, however unpalatable some of them might be?

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The mess around the A61 at Kelham shows the state of Sheffield. On a Friday morning, it takes as long to get from the centre of Doncaster to the parkway at Nunnery Square as it does to travel the last kilometer or so to the area around Scotland Street....I can't see any progress being made only constant traffic jams. It doesn't seem to matter much what the time of day is.

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Population of the city will only grow over time. Barring any major wars or extinction level event of course.

Invest now in an underground system that connects all.

Actually, why not have cable cars?

Good ones.

We've got loads of hills that they can be used to navigate and link up.

It would also be rather unique and a bit of a tourist attraction. Which would pay for the system and bring in extra money.

Plus, they'd be fun.

Sorted.

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i think we will end up with offices in the citys and shopping centres outside the centre,that may be the best idea over time?

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1 hour ago, bassett one said:

i think we will end up with offices in the citys and shopping centres outside the centre,that may be the best idea over time?

That's pretty much the way it was going a few years back. However things have  changed and generally  now the plan is to have more residential development  in  city centres, which provides customers for shops, bars, restaurants and makes the city centre more vibrant.

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4 hours ago, probedb said:

The mess around the A61 at Kelham shows the state of Sheffield. On a Friday morning, it takes as long to get from the centre of Doncaster to the parkway at Nunnery Square as it does to travel the last kilometer or so to the area around Scotland Street....I can't see any progress being made only constant traffic jams. It doesn't seem to matter much what the time of day is.

It shows they are trying to improve matters. Heard the one about needing to crack eggs to get an omelette? Yeah, there might be a few problems while the works are ongoing. It is rather difficult to dig the place up while keeping traffic running as normal you know.

 

Hardly a fair comparison when you are driving in a congested city centre on roads that are undergoing construction works and trying to compare it to driving in town half the size and on high capacity roads that are have  relatively light traffic. 

 

Personally, I go round the inner relief road  a fair bit and I haven't seen major issues with traffic. It was always busy at peak times and some lanes were prone to clog up due to turning traffic but that's why they re improving it.

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4 hours ago, probedb said:

The mess around the A61 at Kelham shows the state of Sheffield. On a Friday morning, it takes as long to get from the centre of Doncaster to the parkway at Nunnery Square as it does to travel the last kilometer or so to the area around Scotland Street....I can't see any progress being made only constant traffic jams. It doesn't seem to matter much what the time of day is.

The mess around Kelham Island is caused entirely by unnecessary car journeys. I can't see any progress being made either, because people are too lazy to either use public transport, cycle or walk.

 

Not everyone can, and not every journey, but most could some of the time.

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18 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

Define "a lot". Of all the people who travel into the city centre to work or shop, what percentage of them cycle? 

According to census data, travel to work mode share in Sheffield is 2 to 3 % for cycling (depends on trip length) and 10% for walking.

Edited by Planner1

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18 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

I'm concerned that the Manchester report you quoted elsewhere seems to indicate that no matter what is done, bus usage is set to fall. Which makes one wonder whether busses are in any way, shape or form actually "sustainable" and why so much public money is thus being thrown at them. Indeed, one could argue that road widening, including the demolition of properties that you seem horrified at the prospect of is what is actually needed to improve traffic flow. Rather than, for example,  the mess that is the route into the city from Meadowhead, a single carriageway road that cries out to be a dual carriageway yet SCC flee from the very idea. Because, you say, it's apparently "too expensive". More expensive than killing off the economic activity in the city centre and thus the long term interests of the city? With that attitude, it makes one grateful that the officers at SCC were not present when the motorway network was proposed last century - they'd be against it on cost grounds alone no doubt, short-sighted that they are.

 

Perhaps "road widening on the cheap", by of doing away with bus lanes, opening road space to all traffic might improve matters generally, rather than the tinkering around the edges on the back of discrete commercial developments approach that SCC seem to currently operate under. One can't help but think that both the officers and councillors at SCC suffer from a distinct lack of vision.

 

You also say the politicians make the decisions, which is true only to the extent that they make their decisions based on what council officers tell them. Are you sure they are told all options, however unpalatable some of them might be?

Even though usage is declining, buses are still the major mode of public transport in Manchester and elsewhere and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. That's why the money gets spent. The roads would be much more badly clogged if the bus passengers all used cars. Also a sizeable number of people don't have access to a car.

 

Highway scheme proposals have to go through a rigorous assurance process at city region  or government level. They both essentially use the same process. A business case has to be developed which analyses the (monetised) benefits of the scheme (like time saving for motorists) and compares them with the cost and disbenefits.  Only schemes which offer "good" value generally proceed. Promoters aim to get a benefit / cost ratio of at least 2. (ie the monetised benefits are twice the costs) A scheme which needed to spend huge amounts buying up property to demolish might then not have a very good benefit cost ratio, so might not proceed.

 

Often, major Government funding pots are time limited in terms of how long you have to deliver a scheme. The Local Sustainable Transport Fund, to which Sheffield City Region have bid for £200m, has to be spent by end of March 2023. That basically precludes any significant land acquisition if the land owner doesn't want to sell. The Compulsory Purchase process is lengthy and costly, which again lowers your benefit / cost ratio and increases the delivery timescale. This makes a scheme look less attractive / more risky to a funder. That's why local authorities tend to try to deliver schemes within the existing highway boundary or only utilising land they already own or can easily acquire. 

 

The Councillors are fully briefed on available options. On significant highways schemes the Cabinet Member usually works very closely with the officers on developing the options. The Leader is often involved, the Cabinet get briefed and the ruling councillor group is usually briefed too. The business case development process also includes a lot of option sifting at the early stages and has to discuss what these other options are and why they aren't the best. The business cases are scrutinised by governance boards who are usually made up of very experienced professionals who will ask the difficult questions. They also have teams of officers who are experts in their fields, who scrutinise the business case and report to the governance board with recommendations. 

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perhaps if the supertram system /network was extended from Herdings around to lowedges THAT would be a massive improvement for the Sat James shopping centre ,perhaps people would stop driving there 

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2 hours ago, bassett one said:

the buses are free in  some countrys that would help sheffield?

I’ve seen research which suggests most car drivers would not use public transport even if it were free.

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