South Of Sheffield Traffic Madness

[abbeyedges 82]

I went to Bramall Lane yesterday and then went to rail station.

 

Bought a £5.90 ticket to Worksop. No checks on the gate to access the platform.

 

The train was packed. The guard had no chance of going down the carriages to ask for tickets / payments. It made me think just how many people had purchased a ticket. 

 

If the railways are looking to invest then maybe they need to make sure that all passengers are actually paying for their journeys. 

[DerbyTup 10]

On 05/01/2020 at 17:14, max said:

Planner1 has constantly reminded people that he/she does not work for the council nor is he/she responsible for any decisions that they have made or may make in the future. In fact, every post he/she makes has that exact disclaimer as his/her signature.

 

This is not an us and them situation, we all live in this City and perhaps, rather than being judgemental, people could make polite suggestions as to the way forward.

Hello!  You sound angry about something? 

 

Believe it or not, and this may put me in the minority, I don't "research" people on here before I respond to what they have written.  I have no idea who Planner 1 is or what Planner 1 does and I really don't care. 

 

All I know is, Planner 1 is suggesting punitive measures to get people out of their cars and using public transport.  And I think that's not the way forward.  So I've given examples from my own experience of where it works well and how it works well.  I think that's pretty constructive tbh.  

 

I think the suggestion of punishing people to get them out of their cars isn't a good one.  But the tone of your response to me, wrapped up in a "why not make polite suggestions" is quite hilarious. Why not make polite suggestions as to the way forward instead? 😃

 

[DerbyTup 10]

On 05/01/2020 at 09:19, Bargepole23 said:

Hard to compare public transport costs between countries, but I can get a bus ticket to get into town from Ecclesall for £1.80. A single ticket in Switzerland, about £2. I could catch a train from Sheffield to Leeds, about an hour, for about a tenner, a train from Bern to Zurich, about an hour, about twenty quid. I appreciate that reliability and quality of transport are not comparable.

 

The council have very little money after years of central government cuts, and as you know there would be uproar if council tax was raised by any significant amount to provide funding for transport schemes. We want great infrastructure but few want to pay for it.

Well you're right about comparing transport costs between countries - and that wasn't the intention at all.  I mean, you just can't, not easily, not unless you are going to take into account currency fluctuations, local incomes and taxes.  Most things in Switzerland are prohibitively expensive for UK citizens who are not "naturalised".  Many cantons in Switzerland pay very little tax, some not at all.  So the comparisons are not relevant.  

 

But we are talking about how to make public transport work - that's what I'm talking about anyhow.  And the way you do that is you plan it effectively in the first place.  You understand what the demand is, where the major routes are to be served, by what means of transport and then you build an integrated web of services that link up all the different types of transport so that they work together for people.  This is fundamentally where we have gone  wrong in Sheffield, imo.

 

One could bring up the old argument about, "Why did they rip up the tram tracks in the 1960's?"  and then find there was a need for trams 25 years later.  We could argue that was terribly short-sighted, but let's leave that aside for a moment.  Let's just take one example, "The Supertram" and look at how that was introduced.  It was initially known as  "going from nowhere, to nowhere".   Even now there are large areas of the city where it cannot be easily accessed - and that's o.k. btw - providing it links up to other modes of transport in those areas - but...it doesn't.  

 

That's what I'm talking about - the ability to effectively plan an integrated transport service.  Yes, I know there have been government cuts and it's a very difficult balance to get between transportation and other draws on the public purse.  Totally with you on that as well.  I remember only too well the days of subsidised bus fares in Sheffield but housing rates considerably higher than over the border in Derbyshire.  

 

I still don't see what is preventing us from planning the services better though, or getting them to run on time.  That's not about money actually, that's about planning competence and managing services effectively.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2020 by DerbyTup

[ads36 214]

15 hours ago, Weredoomed said:

..and Meadowhall is free parking and under cover. Bit of a no-brainer for most shopping

Meadowhall?

 

You have to park outside. You have to walk in. Anything you buy you have to carry out.

 

If we suggest that people could do the same thing in the city centre, their heads explode.

[Justin Smith 10]

22 minutes ago, ads36 said:

Meadowhall?

 

You have to park outside. You have to walk in. Anything you buy you have to carry out.

 

If we suggest that people could do the same thing in the city centre, their heads explode.

Yes but you have to pay to park in the town centre, that's what people seem to be forgetting, and people don't like doing that, particularly if there are out of town shopping centres where it's free. As an example Fox Valley in Stocksbridge on the day after Boxing day had queues backing out onto the roads. I'll bet it was far busier than town.

Another fact which puts me off driving into Sheffield town centre is the road layout which is complicated with loads of one ways no left turns, no right turns etc, it's far more complicated than it used to be, I look at they map and my eyes just glaze over. 

[Bilge 34]

We could pedestrianise much more of the city centre and make the other bits much more pedestrian-friendly.

 

York seems to have made a success of it. I know we're not comparable to York in many ways. But if everyone knows they can't drive right into the city centre and expect to park outside the shop/pub/theatre they're visiting then they may actually use the car parks that are dotted around the fringes.  Or just park for free further out and walk it. Or get a bus. Or a tram. Or cycle.

[Tony 10]

There is a lot of merit in pedestrianising much more of the innermost core of the city but difficulties arise because SCC has made a Horlicks of their wheel and spoke approach to the ring road.

 

The idea that vehicles should get on the ring road merry-go-round to access adjacent points has failed to address congestion, in fact it has exacerbated it. Perhaps the salami-slice funding approach over the decades is to blame but I have little confidence that SCC can deliver anything but more of the same problems.

 

A little more carrot and a lot less stick seems a more intelligent way forward than to keep kicking motorists. Maybe it is time to remove restrictions / one ways / dead ends / waiting restrictions / controlled junctions and redesign the city centre so that pedestrians and bikes have lane and junction priority over vehicles, including on major roads. In other words, motorists always give way to people and bikes, not the other way around.

[Bargepole23 337]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

There is a lot of merit in pedestrianising much more of the innermost core of the city but difficulties arise because SCC has made a Horlicks of their wheel and spoke approach to the ring road.

 

The idea that vehicles should get on the ring road merry-go-round to access adjacent points has failed to address congestion, in fact it has exacerbated it. Perhaps the salami-slice funding approach over the decades is to blame but I have little confidence that SCC can deliver anything but more of the same problems.

 

A little more carrot and a lot less stick seems a more intelligent way forward than to keep kicking motorists. Maybe it is time to remove restrictions / one ways / dead ends / waiting restrictions / controlled junctions and redesign the city centre so that pedestrians and bikes have lane and junction priority over vehicles, including on major roads. In other words, motorists always give way to people and bikes, not the other way around.

How else is a ring road supposed to work, other than a wheel and spoke approach as you have described?

 

As for motorists giving way to pedestrians and cyclists, pull the other one. It's not in the nature of a large minority of entitled "road tax" payers to give way to anyone once behind the wheel. As a cyclist and pedestrian I would be a fool to assume any different. 

[Planner1 428]

6 hours ago, Tony said:

The idea that vehicles should get on the ring road merry-go-round to access adjacent points has failed to address congestion, in fact it has exacerbated it. 

But, there's very little congestion on the inner ring road outside the peak hours, so visitors / shoppers largely aren't badly affected.

 

There's also congestion at major shopping centres like Meadowhall etc, so it's not a problem that's only related to the city centre.

 

All towns and cities have traffic congestion at peak times and to expect the Council to "address" this ie eliminate it, is an unreasonable ask. Trying to road build your way out of congestion isn't the way forward, even the Americans realise this.

 

7 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

Another fact which puts me off driving into Sheffield town centre is the road layout which is complicated with loads of one ways no left turns, no right turns etc, it's far more complicated than it used to be, I look at they map and my eyes just glaze over. 

Do you get confused at Meadowhall, which has a ring road and access roads off it which lead to car parks and back out onto the ring road? Pretty much the same way it works in the city centre but on a bit larger scale.....

 

10 hours ago, DerbyTup said:

Let's just take one example, "The Supertram" and look at how that was introduced.  It was initially known as  "going from nowhere, to nowhere".   Even now there are large areas of the city where it cannot be easily accessed - and that's o.k. btw - providing it links up to other modes of transport in those areas - but...it doesn't.  

 

That's what I'm talking about - the ability to effectively plan an integrated transport service.  Yes, I know there have been government cuts and it's a very difficult balance to get between transportation and other draws on the public purse.  Totally with you on that as well.  I remember only too well the days of subsidised bus fares in Sheffield but housing rates considerably higher than over the border in Derbyshire.  

 

I still don't see what is preventing us from planning the services better though, or getting them to run on time.  That's not about money actually, that's about planning competence and managing services effectively.

 

 

The main thing which prevents bus services co-ordinating with other transport services is the way the regulatory framework works. Bus services are de-regulated, so are provided by commercial operators who run them wherever and whenever it profits them. They cannot be made to co-ordinate their bus services with trams  or trains.

 

Franchising is the way that public authorities can get control back, but it brings with it some significant financial risks, which is one reason why it hasn't been done so far. Another reason was that the regulatory setup didn't allow it to happen until recently. They tried to do it in Tyneside, but after legal challenge from the bus companies found that it could not be delivered in the legal setup that prevailed.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Planner1

[Tony 10]

2 hours ago, Bargepole23 said:

How else is a ring road supposed to work, other than a wheel and spoke approach as you have described?

 

As for motorists giving way to pedestrians and cyclists, pull the other one. It's not in the nature of a large minority of entitled "road tax" payers to give way to anyone once behind the wheel. As a cyclist and pedestrian I would be a fool to assume any different. 

Sheffield's version of a "ring road" (for there are many types) is that a motorist at the hub who wishes to drive to anther part of the hub is required to travel along a spoke to the wheel, around the wheel, back down a spoke to the other part of the hub.

 

It's difficult to describe in words, but for example if you are in the John Lewis car park and you wish to drive to Howden House, a journey of 2-3 miles taking 15 minutes is required. Try it for yourself. 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/John+Lewis+Customer+Car+Park,+31+Burgess+St,+Sheffield+S1+2HF/Howden+House,+1+Union+St,+Sheffield+S1+2SH/@53.3812017,-1.4868128,14z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48798281b96162a1:0x113f18d071627ff2!2m2!1d-1.4711804!2d53.3793071!1m5!1m1!1s0x487982817cecf0ef:0xc9353fcd92970d0a!2m2!1d-1.4702571!2d53.3782856!3e0?hl=en-GB 

 

This is what is colloquially known as a Horlicks. There are many reasons for it but it is still a Horlicks. It creates additional traffic, congestion, pollution and danger to other people. 

 

 

 

On bikes having priority, it's a well known road planning method. All that really changes is that the give-way junctions are for cars, not bikes. For example, the Penistone Road cycle lane would be a continuous stripe of red tarmac all the way from Grenoside to town. If a car wishes to turn left to exit Penistone Rd, or right to enter it, they wait to give way to bikes that are on the red stripe.

 

So for example, a roundabout where cars give way to bikes;

 

Straight lines are easy

 

 

T junctions are a breeze

 

 

I am certain that Planner 1 will be very familiar with this highway design where cycle lanes have priority and motorists have to give way.  I have a hunch that he and his colleagues would adopt it like a shot if the political will was there. If only highways engineers and traffic planners could resist their natural urges to over-design we might be in with a chance of enticing people to leave their vehicle at home. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Tony

[ads36 214]

54 minutes ago, Tony said:

...if you are in the John Lewis car park and you wish to drive to Howden House...

then you should reconsider, it's only a few hundred metres.

 

i'm absolutely in support of transport planning where very short journeys are deliberately made more inconvenient to drive, than to walk.

 

(you can still make this journey by car if you wish)

Edited January 7, 2020 by ads36

[Planner1 428]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

Sheffield's version of a "ring road" (for there are many types) is that a motorist at the hub who wishes to drive to anther part of the hub is required to travel along a spoke to the wheel, around the wheel, back down a spoke to the other part of the hub

 

This is what is colloquially known as a Horlicks. There are many reasons for it but it is still a Horlicks. It creates additional traffic, congestion, pollution and danger to other people. 

It does what its' supposed to do, discourage drivers from using city centre area as a through route.

 

Therefore it reduces traffic levels in the central area, lowering noise, pollution and danger to others.

 

Many drivers would go straight through the centre of the city if they could (as it's the shortest route for them) and, other than imposing a congestion charge, I can't see another viable way of keeping them out.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Planner1