South Of Sheffield Traffic Madness

[Justin Smith 10]

On ‎04‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 18:57, dave_the_m said:

My morning commute takes 15 minutes door to door by car, or about 45 mins by buses, or 55 mins by foot. If buses were free, I'd probably still choose to drive.

There are journeys for which public transport will never be competitive, there are journeys where the time penalty is not severe, and there are journeys (usually over longer distances and involving rail) where public transport is actually faster. You will never get all car drivers to use public transport, possibly not even a majority, even if it were free. But, if it was free and there was a more frequent service (which one assumes would happen as the demand would go up) I think almost certain a significant proportion of car drivers would use it.

On ‎05‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 09:19, Bargepole23 said:

Hard to compare public transport costs between countries, but I can get a bus ticket to get into town from Ecclesall for £1.80. A single ticket in Switzerland, about £2. I could catch a train from Sheffield to Leeds, about an hour, for about a tenner, a train from Bern to Zurich, about an hour, about twenty quid. I appreciate that reliability and quality of transport are not comparable.

 

The council have very little money after years of central government cuts, and as you know there would be uproar if council tax was raised by any significant amount to provide funding for transport schemes. We want great infrastructure but few want to pay for it.

Trains to Leeds are relatively cheap due to subsidy, you try getting a train (at peak time pay when you turn up) to somewhere that is not subsidised as much, e.g. Selby in Nth Yorkshire. A single fare £15 to £20.

Birmingham, for example, is even worse, an "anytime" flexible return is almost £100 !

Edited January 6, 2020 by Justin Smith

[Bargepole23 337]

1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

There are journeys for which public transport will never be competitive, there are journeys where the time penalty is not severe, and there are journeys (usually over longer distances and involving rail) where public transport is actually faster. You will never get all car drivers to use public transport, possibly not even a majority, even if it were free. But, if it was free and there was a more frequent service (which one assumes would happen as the demand would go up) I think almost certain a significant proportion of car drivers would use it.

Trains to Leeds are relatively cheap due to subsidy, you try getting a train (at peak time pay when you turn up) to somewhere that is not subsidised as much, e.g. Selby in Nth Yorkshire. A single fare £15 to £20.

Birmingham, for example, is even worse, an "anytime" flexible return is almost £100 !

Ok. I could get to Selby today or tomorrow for 13 quid by train. 

 

There are few circumstances where the general public require an anytime return. I use the train quite a bit for business travel, and would either buy a single each way as and when I needed it, or if I was certain of my travel times, like the majority of commuters, would buy a fixed time ticket.

[Planner1 428]

14 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

I remain unconvinced that if public transport was really free that substantial numbers of car drivers would fail to use it.

 

My own research indicates that just a 10 to 20% drop in car use would result in a significant reduction in traffic jams.

 

Many commentators put the reduction in peak hour traffic during the school summer holidays as being perhaps a quarter to a third. I think most people would view the difference at that time as being "substantial".

 

I'd think a 10% reduction might make a bit of difference, you'd probably notice it, but it wouldn't' be huge.

 

There are some interesting articles about the impact of free public transport. This one reckons that car use decreased by 10% in Aubagne in France (Population 100k).

 

Apparently Hassfelt in Belgium had free public transport for a good number of years but had to start charging as it was no longer economically viable.

 

In this article, researchers from Delft university looked into the impact of the free public transport scheme in Tallin and found the number of people swapping from car use to public transport was 8%, but average length of car trips went up by 31% and there were more cars on the road (perhaps due to changes in shopping and leisure habits). Interestingly the researchers thought that making motoring more expensive, such as by increased parking fees, might be more effective in reducing car trips. They also found "mixed evidence" on whether the scheme had improved mobility and accessibility of low income and unemployed residents and no evidence that employment opportunities increased as a result of the policy (so it didn't attract new jobs to the area). They concluded that free public transport wasn't the "no brainer" that everyone might initially think it to be.  

Edited January 6, 2020 by Planner1

[Planner1 428]

14 hours ago, Justin Smith said:

However, just making parking more expensive and/or reducing its availability is a very dangerous game to play as many car owners simply change their behaviour and, for example, shop in out of town centres with free parking. We see this all around us, city / town centre shops closing yet out of town centres are packed. 

most commentators have the view that whether or not people come to a particular town / city / district to shop is more dependant on the overall "offer" of the place rather than the cost of parking.

 

The decline in town centre retail is mostly put down to changes in the way we shop and spend our leisure time, not parking charges.

 

Retailers sometimes have a skewed view about parking charges, because they incorrectly think the majority of customers come to them by car.

 

If you ask a typical retailer (in a town or district shopping area) they will say maybe 60% of customers come to them by car, and 40% by public transport or other means. The reality is absolutely the opposite as shown in this Sustrans study, which I had replicated in a South Yorkshire town when I worked there and got very much the same result.

 

This research suggested that over a period of a month, people who walked and cycled actually spent more in shops than car drivers (who spent more per visit, but visited less).

[Meltman 311]

I would be surprised if many people walk or cycle into the city to do their shopping (not town or district but city as in Sheffield) but can appriciate people living local to an out of town shopping area doing so. It all depends on the type of shops and the type of shopping required. It is easy to pop to a local shop for a loaf/pint of milk but don't expect anyone to walk or cycle a couple of miles to do the weekly shopping and then have to carry it home. Yes i know it is posible to shop on line but not everyone wants/can do this and stuff can be delivered but usuall at a cost.

 

When permission to build these shopping centres is sought more care and study should go into the infrastructure arround them prior to granting permission to build. 

 

I believe the decline in shopping in Sheffield city centre is due to ease of access close enough to the main shopping areas by car or public transport (as above ...people carrying bags etc) and the change of housing over the years. A great proportion of the population moved away from the city centre to "the suberbs" and district shopping areas then becamr more conveniant, especially when ample parking is available. 

[Justin Smith 10]

1 hour ago, Planner1 said:

Many commentators put the reduction in peak hour traffic during the school summer holidays as being perhaps a quarter to a third. I think most people would view the difference at that time as being "substantial".

 

I'd think a 10% reduction might make a bit of difference, you'd probably notice it, but it wouldn't' be huge.

 

There are some interesting articles about the impact of free public transport. This one reckons that car use decreased by 10% in Aubagne in France (Population 100k).

 

Apparently Hassfelt in Belgium had free public transport for a good number of years but had to start charging as it was no longer economically viable.

 

In this article, researchers from Delft university looked into the impact of the free public transport scheme in Tallin and found the number of people swapping from car use to public transport was 8%, but average length of car trips went up by 31% and there were more cars on the road (perhaps due to changes in shopping and leisure habits). Interestingly the researchers thought that making motoring more expensive, such as by increased parking fees, might be more effective in reducing car trips. They also found "mixed evidence" on whether the scheme had improved mobility and accessibility of low income and unemployed residents and no evidence that employment opportunities increased as a result of the policy (so it didn't attract new jobs to the area). They concluded that free public transport wasn't the "no brainer" that everyone might initially think it to be.  

Aren't all those tests fairly small conurbations ?

I can remember distinctly when Sth Yorks cheap bus fares were abolished and the traffic became significantly worse almost overnight. And that was just cheap fares, not free.

58 minutes ago, Planner1 said:

most commentators have the view that whether or not people come to a particular town / city / district to shop is more dependant on the overall "offer" of the place rather than the cost of parking.

 

The decline in town centre retail is mostly put down to changes in the way we shop and spend our leisure time, not parking charges.

 

Retailers sometimes have a skewed view about parking charges, because they incorrectly think the majority of customers come to them by car.

 

If you ask a typical retailer (in a town or district shopping area) they will say maybe 60% of customers come to them by car, and 40% by public transport or other means. The reality is absolutely the opposite as shown in this Sustrans study, which I had replicated in a South Yorkshire town when I worked there and got very much the same result.

 

This research suggested that over a period of a month, people who walked and cycled actually spent more in shops than car drivers (who spent more per visit, but visited less).

I would very much dispute that the cost of parking has minimal effect on whether people use their car to access a particular area, though I'd agree that the absence of parking has an even bigger effect.

[HappyCampers 10]

2 hours ago, Meltman said:

When permission to build these shopping centres is sought more care and study should go into the infrastructure arround them prior to granting permission to build.

An irony here for me is the amount of thought that was supposed to have been put in to the St James Retail traffic flows - and it is still an idiotic road layout

 

My mother in law lives opposite and, along with many of her neighbours, they campaigned to have decent access - because they feared everyone would park on their road to walk in. Which lots now do, clogging quiet residential streets

 

Personally avoid driving when I can, but public transport in Sheffield is, in my experience, pretty dire. Easily 90 mins each way to travel 6 miles by bus. Can do the same trip by e-bike in 20 - 30 minutes or so, but too few decent cycle routes and too many near misses

 

Used to work in Manchester. The commute by train was about an hour but £150 a week to stand both ways - generally quicker than moving a handful of miles around Sheffield though

Edited January 6, 2020 by HappyCampers

[ads36 214]

1 hour ago, Justin Smith said:

I'd agree that the absence of parking has an even bigger effect.

apart from all of the car parks ?

 

 

[Bargepole23 337]

2 hours ago, Meltman said:

I would be surprised if many people walk or cycle into the city to do their shopping (not town or district but city as in Sheffield) but can appriciate people living local to an out of town shopping area doing so. It all depends on the type of shops and the type of shopping required. It is easy to pop to a local shop for a loaf/pint of milk but don't expect anyone to walk or cycle a couple of miles to do the weekly shopping and then have to carry it home. Yes i know it is posible to shop on line but not everyone wants/can do this and stuff can be delivered but usuall at a cost.

 

When permission to build these shopping centres is sought more care and study should go into the infrastructure arround them prior to granting permission to build. 

 

I believe the decline in shopping in Sheffield city centre is due to ease of access close enough to the main shopping areas by car or public transport (as above ...people carrying bags etc) and the change of housing over the years. A great proportion of the population moved away from the city centre to "the suberbs" and district shopping areas then becamr more conveniant, especially when ample parking is available. 

How close do you want to be able to park next to city centre shops? I can park on top of John Lewis or Atkinsons, in the car park bang next to the Moor, in the Cheesegrater on Peace Gardens, on street and off street parking on Division St, and many many more I could list. Public transport runs directly through the centre of town.

 

It couldn't be easier.

[Weredoomed 10]

1 hour ago, Bargepole23 said:

How close do you want to be able to park next to city centre shops? I can park on top of John Lewis or Atkinsons, in the car park bang next to the Moor, in the Cheesegrater on Peace Gardens, on street and off street parking on Division St, and many many more I could list. Public transport runs directly through the centre of town.

 

It couldn't be easier.

...and Meadowhall is free parking and under cover. Bit of a no-brainer for most shopping TBH.

[Bargepole23 337]

22 minutes ago, Weredoomed said:

...and Meadowhall is free parking and under cover. Bit of a no-brainer for most shopping TBH.

Never go. I like to leave open the possibility of a nice drink or meal or both in a nice cafe/bar if I go into town. Those options are unavailable at Meadowhall.

[Meltman 311]

1 hour ago, Bargepole23 said:

How close do you want to be able to park next to city centre shops? I can park on top of John Lewis or Atkinsons, in the car park bang next to the Moor, in the Cheesegrater on Peace Gardens, on street and off street parking on Division St, and many many more I could list. Public transport runs directly through the centre of town.

 

It couldn't be easier.

My mistake...in the bit you highlighted I missed out the word LACK....meaning lack of ease of accesss etc.

We can all park at John Lewis or Atkinsons, car park, near the moor, the Cheesegrater or anywhere else available but as my post was intended it is the lack of easy access to many of these places to shop compared to the out of town shopping areas. 

It also depends on where you are coming from and availability of public transport.

If anyone wants to go into town for a social visit rather than "shopping" then I agree there are other ways to get there