Daven   10 #73 Posted December 23, 2019 As an answer to the OP - is our NHS safe ? In the hands of those who work within it most definitely yes. In the hands of this Government - most definitely NOT.  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Anna B   1,365 #74 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) On 20/12/2019 at 21:34, *_ash_* said: You've convinced me over the years that media is all right-wing nonsense. In this thread, you call it a 'documentary' (though with the title, doesn't sound too impartial to me 'The Dirty War in the NHS'); an important film; public information dynamite. You've not sold it me. What you've written about it is the same things as usual. And like the post you quoted me, it's groundhog day. Just look at all the elections in this forum. Same people same things. Look at the threads in 2010 when Cameron won. The country was finished. Still here now.  Have you watched any of the university lectures that I shared with you? I find these a bit more impartial. Well not quite all of us are still here are we? Quite a few people have died as a direct result of Tory policies. How many more have to become victims before people start to take note.   Edited December 24, 2019 by Anna B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Anna B   1,365 #75 Posted December 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Daven said: As an answer to the OP - is our NHS safe ? In the hands of those who work within it most definitely yes. In the hands of this Government - most definitely NOT.  That's pretty much what I think.  Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Westie1889   0 #76 Posted December 24, 2019 I agree with some of the posts that something radical needs to change with the NHS to make it fit for the challenges ahead. i don’t claim to have the answers but think there is a huge conflict culturally in that it needs a more business orientated mindset in one way to improve efficiency and lower costs, yet on the other side the duty of care and personal touch must remain. having spent far too much time in 6 different hospitals in the last 2 years with elderly parents I have seen the good, the bad and the plain ugly. The thing that has stuck me the most is not the facilities as most have been ok to good but the difference in the quality and attitude of staff from one hospital or even one ward within the same hospital to others. We’ve  had amazing care where staff were attentive, professional and kept the patients spirits up to others who were lazy and neglectful to the point where we were given the opportunity to launch a negligence claim by the hospital manager (we didn’t as it would have been substantial and in our view just drags more money out of the system). There needs to be an honest national debate that’s cross-party to determine its future without  any ideological influences, the current level of debate whitewashes many of the real issues in my opinion as it’s either all bad or all amazing when in truth it’s a much more nuanced argument. Most people don’t care whether it’s 100% privatised or 100% state controlled, they just want the best possible service. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
hobinfoot   25 #77 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) I said it another post that the NHS is set up to deal with a population of around 50-55 million not the 60 odd we have and there’s the problem in a nutshell. People are living longer with all it’s inerrant problems. But poor long term planning by the powers to be especially social care has led to the difficult situation it now finds itself in. Edited December 24, 2019 by hobinfoot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Anna B   1,365 #78 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Westie1889 said: I agree with some of the posts that something radical needs to change with the NHS to make it fit for the challenges ahead. i don’t claim to have the answers but think there is a huge conflict culturally in that it needs a more business orientated mindset in one way to improve efficiency and lower costs, yet on the other side the duty of care and personal touch must remain. having spent far too much time in 6 different hospitals in the last 2 years with elderly parents I have seen the good, the bad and the plain ugly. The thing that has stuck me the most is not the facilities as most have been ok to good but the difference in the quality and attitude of staff from one hospital or even one ward within the same hospital to others. We’ve  had amazing care where staff were attentive, professional and kept the patients spirits up to others who were lazy and neglectful to the point where we were given the opportunity to launch a negligence claim by the hospital manager (we didn’t as it would have been substantial and in our view just drags more money out of the system). There needs to be an honest national debate that’s cross-party to determine its future without  any ideological influences, the current level of debate whitewashes many of the real issues in my opinion as it’s either all bad or all amazing when in truth it’s a much more nuanced argument. Most people don’t care whether it’s 100% privatised or 100% state controlled, they just want the best possible service. I feel that it was trying to apply a 'business orientated mindset' thar started the rot in the first place. Thatcher introduced the 'internal market' and competition between different trusts, back in the late 70s. That's when admin costs rocketed from £5 to £25 per capita, and have continued to rise ever since.  Consequent shortages (of staff and resources) have dragged moral to rock bottom, and an unhappy and resentful staff will find it hard to carry out their duties with a smile on their faces, so yes sadly attitudes have changed. Staff need to feel valued to give of their best, and need the time to care. That's true in all jobs, but in jobs where interaction is with the vulnerable, sick and the elderly, it's essential. I don't think a 'business mindset' will do much to address that, and might well do the opposite.   Edited December 24, 2019 by Anna B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
fools   447 #79 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) Don't know where you get these figures from, but £25 per person is nothing for an organisation that gets >£2000 per person, with 1million employees, and getting on for 70 million customers.  This idea that a handful of tories in Westminster have more impact on your health outcome, than the efforts, diligence, and competences of the 1 million employees and civil servants in between is bizarre.  The social care problem gets kicked into touch by the electorate, because the politicians can't come up with a financially pain free solution, because there isn't one. Families used to do it for nothing, but the financial incentives to break apart families via the legal system and persuading youngsters that they need to go to the other end of the country to do degrees of questionable value are part of the problem.  The shortage of staff - if not enough people want to, or are capable of doing it, that is outside the scope of any politician to address. So we steal staff from other countries as we have done for a long time.   Edited December 24, 2019 by fools Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Anna B   1,365 #80 Posted December 24, 2019 49 minutes ago, fools said: Don't know where you get these figures from, but £25 per person is nothing for an organisation that gets >£2000 per person, with 1million employees, and getting on for 70 million customers.  This idea that a handful of tories in Westminster have more impact on your health outcome, than the efforts, diligence, and competences of the 1 million employees and civil servants in between is bizarre.  The social care problem gets kicked into touch by the electorate, because the politicians can't come up with a financially pain free solution, because there isn't one. Families used to do it for nothing, but the financial incentives to break apart families via the legal system and persuading youngsters that they need to go to the other end of the country to do degrees of questionable value are part of the problem.  The shortage of staff - if not enough people want to, or are capable of doing it, that is outside the scope of any politician to address. So we steal staff from other countries as we have done for a long time.   The figures came from the programme which you haven't watched, and I think is what it was back then. But a 5 x rise overnight rise seems pretty steep to me.  Of course politicians have an influence. That's what they're there for. Cut staff and your chances of a successful outcome are also cut. For instance, old people starve to death in hospital because there is noone to help them eat or supervise their diet.  Social care is an enormous problem, but is that a reason to ignore it? Again thousands of people are not getting the help they need and are dying as a result.  Time was when nursing was a highly sought after occupation, which gave suitable people respected and worthy careers. So what happened? It's not for want of applicants that nursing is in dire straights, but lack of funding. The use of short term agency nurses is also a massive drain on what money is available, and has been for a long time. It needs fixing.   Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
fools   447 #81 Posted December 24, 2019 (edited) Don't accuse people of not watching it without evidence, the previous post (which you quoted) made clear I had. I must have dozed off at that bit as it was incredibly boring, again £20 nothing.  If old people are starving in hospital, that's because someone doesn't give a damn. What sort of medical staff lets a patient die of starvation.  they aren't ignoring it, the public are.  working in the local supermarket is easier than mopping up bodily fluids. If there was a time when we didn't depend on foreign nurses, I don't remember it. The problem is one of management, not one of funding or politics.  £140 billion pa, it's awash with cash     Edited December 24, 2019 by fools Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Anna B   1,365 #82 Posted December 25, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, fools said: Don't accuse people of not watching it without evidence, the previous post (which you quoted) made clear I had. I must have dozed off at that bit as it was incredibly boring, again £20 nothing.  If old people are starving in hospital, that's because someone doesn't give a damn. What sort of medical staff lets a patient die of starvation.  they aren't ignoring it, the public are.  working in the local supermarket is easier than mopping up bodily fluids. If there was a time when we didn't depend on foreign nurses, I don't remember it. The problem is one of management, not one of funding or politics.  £140 billion pa, it's awash with cash     2 people a day die from malnutrition or thirst in UK hospitals according to statistics. The Daily mail has the national figure at 50,000 a year. Whether that's an accurate figure or not I don't know, but it's certainly a big problem. There simply aren't the nurses available to take the time to hand feed someone who can't feed themselves. Too busy filling in forms and sitting in an office with a computer getting the figures up to date to do the job right. Edited December 25, 2019 by Anna B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Westie1889   0 #83 Posted December 26, 2019 On 24/12/2019 at 17:26, Anna B said: I feel that it was trying to apply a 'business orientated mindset' thar started the rot in the first place. Thatcher introduced the 'internal market' and competition between different trusts, back in the late 70s. That's when admin costs rocketed from £5 to £25 per capita, and have continued to rise ever since.  Consequent shortages (of staff and resources) have dragged moral to rock bottom, and an unhappy and resentful staff will find it hard to carry out their duties with a smile on their faces, so yes sadly attitudes have changed. Staff need to feel valued to give of their best, and need the time to care. That's true in all jobs, but in jobs where interaction is with the vulnerable, sick and the elderly, it's essential. I don't think a 'business mindset' will do much to address that, and might well do the opposite.   I don’t disagree with staff moral being an issue and both sides of the political debate are partly responsible for this as both main parties use the NHS as a political football. Saying that I would hope if I were in that position knowing my actions could and would endanger someone’s life (as in our experience) that I would try my best and that plainly didn’t happen with us. i think there is a dilemma in the business v care mindset as I mentioned in my post, my main thought on the business side of things is that with a limited budget it’s the only way I feel they can try to make the money go further. I work in procurement and know of organisations selling to the NHS who got 6 times the price for their product than they would off a commercial customer, as things were not run as professionally as they would be in a business. we also have friends at various levels in local hospitals and they all say the waste is horrendous  due to there not being the correct mindset and they find trying to change that culture an uphill battle. Thats what I mean by saying it needs a mix of both cultures within the organisation, generate more money through savings and professional management to allow the front line more resources to do get on and do their job.   Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...
Halibut   12 #84 Posted December 27, 2019 22 hours ago, Westie1889 said: I don’t disagree with staff moral being an issue and both sides of the political debate are partly responsible for this as both main parties use the NHS as a political football. Saying that I would hope if I were in that position knowing my actions could and would endanger someone’s life (as in our experience) that I would try my best and that plainly didn’t happen with us. i think there is a dilemma in the business v care mindset as I mentioned in my post, my main thought on the business side of things is that with a limited budget it’s the only way I feel they can try to make the money go further. I work in procurement and know of organisations selling to the NHS who got 6 times the price for their product than they would off a commercial customer, as things were not run as professionally as they would be in a business. we also have friends at various levels in local hospitals and they all say the waste is horrendous  due to there not being the correct mindset and they find trying to change that culture an uphill battle. Thats what I mean by saying it needs a mix of both cultures within the organisation, generate more money through savings and professional management to allow the front line more resources to do get on and do their job.   I think you're exceedingly naive. The reality is, if you let business in, patient care will suffer - as business is about making profit. Everything else is of lesser importance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Share this content via...