Bring Tickets Or Conductor Back On Buses

[St Petre 85]

I recall that back in the 1960s-or perhaps even later- SCT used to re-hire former conductors  that had reached retirement age (65) and they supplemented the regular crews, working week days part time on some of the not so busy routes, off-peak say 10am- 2pm

Edited December 16, 2019 by St Petre

[Guest busdriver1]

On 14/12/2019 at 11:42, 1295galaxy said:

The Cards people used on Buses might be easier than tickets,but the Bus drivers are taking that long to put on there touch screens that its really making buses more later on the Bus Times,and Mondays can be the worst day of the week when people have to Renew there cards to get to work,and the Drivers are taking so long put the right the correct codes for the cards to work,tickets was a lot quicker,but a bus conductor on a bus might help even better,with them renewing the cards instead of the Driver,do the drivers really get trained to use the touch screen panels as some take that long,just one person getting on a bus can now take as long as 5 minutes to get there tickets

It has nothing to fo with the drivers taking too long, they cant enter it until the machine recognises the debit card, that is the delay. Then you have people just putting their cards on the readers before asking for a certain fare/ pass etc. That locks the machine up and nothing can be done till the card is removed and the machine cleared so he can then enter the information into it. Drivers got lots of training on the machines, the public did not. I have seen one case where the passenger locked the machine 4 times until the driver took the card off the passenger until the machine was ready to take it. 

Do people put there cards onto or into a card machine in a shop before the assistant has entered to total? NO so why do people try it on buses?

21 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Can someone point me to why cash free in London is illegal?

The information I got was from the Traffic commissioner's office for South East and Metropolitan traffic area. It was in an email that I daftly did not save, in a nutshell it is as follows.

 

When a bus company operates a "PUBLIC" service, they are entitled to claim B.S.O.G. * (Bus service operators grant) this is not payable to operators of private services i.e. works shuttles and school trips to sports stadiums etc but is available to operators of school services ( hence why you see "all passengers welcome" on the destination of some school services).

 

B.S.O.G. IS claimed for ALL TfL services by TfL as the operator as all revenue goes to them, and is now payed out by . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. TfL

 

The issue is that in order to travel on a TfL service you have to pre-qualify by having an oyster card or contactless debit card so is in the eyes of the law a PRIVATE service, as a person in the street can not just walk up and get on without fulfilling the above criteria.  ( I could not use it as  I have neither of the above). 

In areas outside London, this would be enforced and prevented from happening by the Traffic commissioners but inside London these powers have been delegated to TfL.

 

For obvious reasons TfL have not put this into the public domain and are not likely to but if you want confirmation just email the relevant traffic commissioner's office who I am sure will be all too happy to confirm the above.

[Baron99 779]

On 14/12/2019 at 15:10, Chaddamp said:

I agree, Blakey, Butler and Jack would be a welcome site "On The Buses" as they once were

Last time I was on a bus, there were so many passengers crammed on the bus, there wouldn't have been enough room for a conductor as well. 

[ECCOnoob 1,020]

10 hours ago, busdriver1 said:

It has nothing to fo with the drivers taking too long, they cant enter it until the machine recognises the debit card, that is the delay. Then you have people just putting their cards on the readers before asking for a certain fare/ pass etc. That locks the machine up and nothing can be done till the card is removed and the machine cleared so he can then enter the information into it. Drivers got lots of training on the machines, the public did not. I have seen one case where the passenger locked the machine 4 times until the driver took the card off the passenger until the machine was ready to take it. 

Do people put there cards onto or into a card machine in a shop before the assistant has entered to total? NO so why do people try it on buses?

The information I got was from the Traffic commissioner's office for South East and Metropolitan traffic area. It was in an email that I daftly did not save, in a nutshell it is as follows.

 

When a bus company operates a "PUBLIC" service, they are entitled to claim B.S.O.G. * (Bus service operators grant) this is not payable to operators of private services i.e. works shuttles and school trips to sports stadiums etc but is available to operators of school services ( hence why you see "all passengers welcome" on the destination of some school services).

 

B.S.O.G. IS claimed for ALL TfL services by TfL as the operator as all revenue goes to them, and is now payed out by . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. TfL

 

The issue is that in order to travel on a TfL service you have to pre-qualify by having an oyster card or contactless debit card so is in the eyes of the law a PRIVATE service, as a person in the street can not just walk up and get on without fulfilling the above criteria.  ( I could not use it as  I have neither of the above). 

In areas outside London, this would be enforced and prevented from happening by the Traffic commissioners but inside London these powers have been delegated to TfL.

 

For obvious reasons TfL have not put this into the public domain and are not likely to but if you want confirmation just email the relevant traffic commissioner's office who I am sure will be all too happy to confirm the above.

Thank you that is interesting.  But there is clearly a whole grey legal area surrounding this.   I am not convinced for one second that an organisation as big as TFL would spend millions of pounds of investment into a contactless system without knowing their compliance with the law.

 

It's a system that is used in cities all over the world without any fuss so I really don't understand why it can't be implemented up here in Sheffield.

 

For those who really want to pay cash they can still do so even in London. All they have to do is go to one of many little local shops to top up their Oyster card using cash -just like many people with poor credit or a low incomes do with utilities payments.   

 

In my opinion the issue still remains that this discussion should not be about looking backwards and seeking to bring back conductors and more about looking forwards and getting rid of cash off the buses altogether.

 

Those with special needs, minors and elderly who are eligible for free travel already have a contactless card and as for the rest of us I will hedge a bet that at least 90% have some form of bank account with either a contactless card or debit card facility which in turn would allow someone to register an online account for an 'oyster style' payment card.   I suspect in reality there will only be a extreme minority who would not fit into either of those categories and for those there could still be an ability to pay by cash setting up a facility as described above.

 

The greater good from all this would be buses and trams in a local area being completely cash free without any of the obvious risks to drivers and clear delays caused by people having to stand there purchasing individual tickets.  

 

I would love to see nothing better than a completely cashfree system where people just walk on through any door, scan and get on board.   They could even bring back the bendy buses and increase capacity.  

[Guest busdriver1]

It is not about contactless payments. Read my post. It's the fact they are claiming b.s.o.g. for a service that is not open to the public without prequalification

[ECCOnoob 1,020]

55 minutes ago, busdriver1 said:

It is not about contactless payments. Read my post. It's the fact they are claiming b.s.o.g. for a service that is not open to the public without prequalification

Admittedly I'm certainly not going to spend hours reading up the law on this but I am really struggling to comprehend how using a, let's say, 'travel payment' card which can be picked up from a transport interchange or local corner shop by anyone without application and topped up and paid for with cash without any formal registration unless the owner of such card chooses to do so - can be classed as 'prequalification'.

 

Is not a credit score, rolling account or other line of credit.

 

However, one nugget I did pick up in my brief glance of the government website was that ".....Operators may receive an 8% increase in their BSOG rate if vehicles have operational smartcard systems ..."     Seems a bit counter intuitive if they are also compelled to accept cash in order to be deemed in compliance with the rules. 

 

To me, smart tickeiting/cards are hardly much different from purchasing a train ticket before travel or even going back to the early supertram days and purchasing a ticket to be validated before boarding.

 

When i have been travelling I've been to Singapore, New York and Chicago and in all three places I simply walked up to a ticket machine and purchased a journey.  I then got on board whichever train bus or tram came along and afterwards I had the choice of either topping up another journey on the same ticket or simply throwing it away.

 

Surely that is deemed a service being "fully open to the public".   As long as people are free to either choose to use their own bank cards to purchase on board or simply go to a place where they can purchase such travel card/pass/ticket/carnet and pay for it how they want.   

 

It could be ticket machines at the bus stops for all I care -  I am just trying to find a way of taking that responsibility off drivers and speeding up the service.

 

Something I'm sure most regular users would welcome and may even encourage others to start using the service.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by ECCOnoob

[Guest busdriver1]

9 hours ago, ECCOnoob said:

Admittedly I'm certainly not going to spend hours reading up the law on this but I am really struggling to comprehend how using a, let's say, 'travel payment' card which can be picked up from a transport interchange or local corner shop by anyone without application and topped up and paid for with cash without any formal registration unless the owner of such card chooses to do so - can be classed as 'prequalification'.

 

Is not a credit score, rolling account or other line of credit.

 

However, one nugget I did pick up in my brief glance of the government website was that ".....Operators may receive an 8% increase in their BSOG rate if vehicles have operational smartcard systems ..."     Seems a bit counter intuitive if they are also compelled to accept cash in order to be deemed in compliance with the rules. 

 

To me, smart tickeiting/cards are hardly much different from purchasing a train ticket before travel or even going back to the early supertram days and purchasing a ticket to be validated before boarding.

 

When i have been travelling I've been to Singapore, New York and Chicago and in all three places I simply walked up to a ticket machine and purchased a journey.  I then got on board whichever train bus or tram came along and afterwards I had the choice of either topping up another journey on the same ticket or simply throwing it away.

 

Surely that is deemed a service being "fully open to the public".   As long as people are free to either choose to use their own bank cards to purchase on board or simply go to a place where they can purchase such travel card/pass/ticket/carnet and pay for it how they want.   

 

It could be ticket machines at the bus stops for all I care -  I am just trying to find a way of taking that responsibility off drivers and speeding up the service.

 

Something I'm sure most regular users would welcome and may even encourage others to start using the service.

 

 

I feel you are deliberately missing the point. In the case of Londons system, there is a clear need to prequalify by having either an oyster card or contactless credit/ debit card, like many people I have neither and will not get one or the other just to use a bus. I am not against the idea of contactless cards on buses, thousands are used every day. The reference to 8% increase n BSOG for taking smart cards was in relation to using ENCTS (concession) passes and predates Card payment on buses.  The situation has been accepted and agreed by the highest authority relating to public transport in the land but as the politicians have delegated the power to the organisation that is effectively policing itself nothing will happen. 

Your comment about it speeding up the service is misleading, how does it do that when it takes 2-3 times as long to sell a ticket by contactless then cash? At least one operator is now looking at extending journey times to allow for this and charging a surcharge to card using customers to fund it. 

Yes,  card payments are here to stay but there must always be a facility for cash but please dont say it speeds up journeys, it does the opposite.

[gamezone07 23]

On 15/12/2019 at 21:03, Annie Bynnol said:

Sheffield/South Yorkshire "cards" still do not have a scheme similar to Oyster where you can put credit on a travel card for irregular journeys.

 

There is an  increasing number of 60+ users without bus passes, for whom the current offer of Travelcard products such as 7 and 28 day  tickets are not appropriate.

"Day tickets" have to be bought two days in advance through as online ticketing is not available to those who use "proper" computers. 

Smart phones can be difficult for some to use. 

We need to be careful that we don't penalise travellers by cost and access because they don't have the debit/credit card and appropriate technology.

Are you saying you can't buy a day saver on the bus anymore?

 

thats really is rubbish/unfair. I like many don't want to monitored everywhere we go, either, watch them sell on the data.

[RollingJ 2,002]

26 minutes ago, gamezone07 said:

Are you saying you can't buy a day saver on the bus anymore?

 

thats really is rubbish/unfair. I like many don't want to monitored everywhere we go, either, watch them sell on the data.

No - paper day savers are available from drivers - the ones referred to above are those loaded onto smart-cards.

[Bargepole23 337]

3 hours ago, gamezone07 said:

Are you saying you can't buy a day saver on the bus anymore?

 

thats really is rubbish/unfair. I like many don't want to monitored everywhere we go, either, watch them sell on the data.

And untrue.

[Zinger549 232]

12 hours ago, busdriver1 said:

Your comment about it speeding up the service is misleading, how does it do that when it takes 2-3 times as long to sell a ticket by contactless then cash? At least one operator is now looking at extending journey times to allow for this and charging a surcharge to card using customers to fund it. 

Yes,  card payments are here to stay but there must always be a facility for cash but please dont say it speeds up journeys, it does the opposite.

If you make the buses contactless it will. In London the driver doesn't have to worry about  tickets and using a machine. You get on the  bus touch your card/device on the yellow reader wait for the green light and that's it.  Zip cards (schoolkids) and freedom passes (60+) are contactless and  it saves a lot of time.  I know not every one  has a contactless debit/credit card or a device (watch/phone) with Apple/Android pay.  There a lots of places to buy an Oyster card if you don't have contactless and they are really easy to use. 

[Guest busdriver1]

12 hours ago, Zinger549 said:

If you make the buses contactless it will. In London the driver doesn't have to worry about  tickets and using a machine. You get on the  bus touch your card/device on the yellow reader wait for the green light and that's it.  Zip cards (schoolkids) and freedom passes (60+) are contactless and  it saves a lot of time.  I know not every one  has a contactless debit/credit card or a device (watch/phone) with Apple/Android pay.  There a lots of places to buy an Oyster card if you don't have contactless and they are really easy to use. 

As has been mentioned, the London system is illegal and also has the advantage of not taking actual fares from debit cards at the point of use and that is where the slow down occurs. 

The oyster system certainly did have flaws in it. When I worked there during its development, when a failure rate of 25% was achieved, it was decided that was good enough to roll it out. I know it got better but is still only about 90% successful. Hence TfL are in such a poor way financially.