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Scotland And Independence.

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I thought Boris said the Scottish referendum was a one-off which was agreed to - if ever there was another vote and the Scots voted not to be a part of the UK I'd respect their choice. 

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On 19/12/2019 at 14:22, L00b said:

"Scotland would be weaker because it would not affect the rest of the UK militarily and make the UK weaker"?

But that is not what I wrote so don't try and make out I did.

 

On 19/12/2019 at 14:22, L00b said:

Have you ever heard of the expression 'non sequitur'?

Yep!

 

On 19/12/2019 at 14:22, L00b said:

Now then, weaknesses. 

 

Do you agree that, in the case of Scottish independence, and thus Scottish territorial sovereignty, ownership of the Faslane base (the land it sits on, let's keep this simple and not bring fixtures and hardware into the equation) would pass from the UK to Scotland, and thus Scotland would gain the authority to either tell the UK to do one over Faslane, or to lease the place to the UK for the sake of continuity?

 

If not, why not?

Because it depends on the deal made for leaving in the case of Scotland getting a majority in a referendum. You obviously know how it works as that is exactly what is happening with the EU after the EU referendum. Many deals will have to be made including what happens with the territorial waters surrounding Scotland as they won't suddenly change overnight! ;) 

 

A bit from the Guardian on what Scotland proposed just before the last indyref:

 

It proposes that under independence – over a 10-year transition period – Scotland would:

“Put in place safeguards to ensure that Scottish forces will only ever participate in military activity that is internationally recognised as lawful and in accordance with the principles of the UN charter”.

Take over existing naval, army and air force bases within Scotland.

Inherit a share of defence equipment in negotiation with the rest of the UK.

Set its own budget of £2.5bn for defence and security spending.

Build up maritime capabilities, including air and sea-based patrol, and specialist forces.

Work towards a total of 15,000 regular and 5,000 reserve personnel in the decade following independence (from 7,500 regular and 2,000 reserve personnel at the point of independence).

Ensure “the units of the Scottish army will carry on the names, identities and traditions of Scotland’s regiments, including those lost in the defence

 

Me bolded.

 

On 19/12/2019 at 14:22, L00b said:

If yes, do you agree that Scotland therefore gaining a full and permanent veto over the continuity of the UK's main strategic SSBN site, amounts to weakening the UK militarily (since the UK could then be made to relocate from Faslane -to wherever and at whatever required costs- on the Scottish government's say-so)?

 

If not, why not?

No "if yes." As said already, deals will have to be done and that could and probably will take many years if Brexit is anything to go by. Even if it does get that veto then I agree that it will cost the UK and that is maybe all as arrangements can be made to relocate from Fastlane.

 

 

 

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Strikes me that if Scotland did decide to take the SNP's advice then, the like of Sturgeon & co would be alright, (like most politicians) but what about the rest of the Scots? 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1220469/nicola-sturgeon-snp-scotland-independence-referendum-brexit-news-boris-johnson/amp#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

“The Scottish government would have to plug the hole in the budget that would be caused by the exit.”

 

Prof McClaren added: “Proponents can always claim that the economy would benefit from independence.

 

“Scotland’s problem would be tax revenue. Scotland would lose £10 billion in Britain’s annual transfer payments.

 

“This corresponds to ten percent of the Scottish budget. How can the Scottish government rebalance the budget?

 

But at the end of the day, it will be their decision....possibly? 

Edited by Baron99

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On 22 December 2019 at 22:19, apelike said:

(...)

 

Because it depends on the deal made for leaving in the case of Scotland getting a majority in a referendum. You obviously know how it works as that is exactly what is happening with the EU after the EU referendum. Many deals will have to be made including what happens with the territorial waters surrounding Scotland as they won't suddenly change overnight! ;) 

 

A bit from the Guardian on what Scotland proposed just before the last indyref:

 

It proposes that under independence – over a 10-year transition period – Scotland would:

(...)

 

Me bolded.

 

No "if yes." As said already, deals will have to be done and that could and probably will take many years if Brexit is anything to go by. Even if it does get that veto then I agree that it will cost the UK and that is maybe all as arrangements can be made to relocate from Fastlane.

Glad we got there in the end, thank you kindly.

 

Likewise for acknowledging the analogy between Brexit and Indyref2: Scotland would be the party with the weaker negotiating hand in its dealing with the RoUK, for the exact same reasons the UK is the party with the weaker negotiating hand  in its dealing with the EU27.

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We had to bail them out YET again this year as they dont raise enough tax.

Give them independance,with a stipulation NONE of them can cross the border to England when it all blows up,theyve had it comming set em free lets end the bailouts and let the SNP die its natural death

 

Edited by staninoodle

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On 22/12/2019 at 19:35, cressida said:

I thought Boris said the Scottish referendum was a one-off which was agreed to - if ever there was another vote and the Scots voted not to be a part of the UK I'd respect their choice. 

Nicola Sturgeon said the Scottish referendum was a once in a generation event before the 2014 referendum. Boris is just agreeing with what Nicola Sturgeon said before the result of the 2014 Scottish referendum.

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On 01/01/2020 at 01:48, staninoodle said:

We had to bail them out YET again this year as they dont raise enough tax.

Give them independance,with a stipulation NONE of them can cross the border to England when it all blows up,theyve had it comming set em free lets end the bailouts and let the SNP die its natural death

 

Agree but if they cross the border to work, they pay their tax to England 

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Is there sympathy and understanding for those that want to remain part of the UK?  

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25 minutes ago, Janus said:

Is there sympathy and understanding for those that want to remain part of the UK?  

Probably most so yes.

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I cannot help thinking that Nicola Sturgeon is overtly biased in favour of leaving. It sometimes seems to be a bit hostile. Maybe the  underlying hostility is because she is somewhat controlled by the UK government?

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24 minutes ago, Janus said:

I cannot help thinking that Nicola Sturgeon is overtly biased in favour of leaving. It sometimes seems to be a bit hostile. Maybe the  underlying hostility is because she is somewhat controlled by the UK government?

Erm, is that a surprise? She’s the leader of the Scottish nationalist party, being governed by a pro brexit, right wing bunch of Tory chancers in a country with hardly any Tory representatives and the country was solidly pro eu.

 

I don’t know how you could possibly think she’s overly bias on leaving. It’s literally her mandate.

 

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