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Scotland And Independence.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, West 77 said:

You seem to have forgotten Scotland had a once in generation independence referendum election in 2014...

The "No" camp in the 2014 referendum campaigned on a promise that voting no would be the only way to *guarantee* Scotlands continued EU membership.

 

"Once in a generation" is only reasonable if there is no material change in the circumstances that prevailed.

 

Brexit is a *massive* change in those circumstances!

 

As such the case for another referendum, should the Scottish people declare their desire for one, is perfectly legitimate.

 

Edited by Magilla

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5 minutes ago, Magilla said:

The "No" camp in the 2014 referendum campaigned on a promise that voting no would be the only way to *guarantee* Scotlands continued EU membership.

 

"Once in a generation" is only reasonable if there is no material change in the circumstances that prevailed.

 

As such the case for another referendum, should the Scottish people declare their desire for one, is perfectly legitimate.

 

Scotland have never been a member of the EU.  Scotland has being part of the UK continued to be under the EU umbrella until the end of January last year (2020)  If Scotland had voted to be no longer part of the UK in 2014 then they would have been removed from the EU umbrella several years earlier.  There could be no guarantee that Scotland could continue under the EU umbrella for ever just like no region of the UK could ever be guaranteed that. 

 

It's the Westminster Parliament that has the only legitimate power to decide if or when Scotland can have another independence referendum.  The best hope that Scotland have of getting another referendum anytime soon is if there is a hung Westminster Parliament and the SNP have the seats to support the largest party to form a government on condition they grant another independence referendum. The truth is the timing of another Scottish independence is out of Scottish people's hands and it will be English voters who will decide if there is another hung Westminster Parliament after a General Election.  It goes without saying a party such as the DUP could decide to support the largest party in a hung parliament meaning Northern Irish voters could prevent Scotland being granted  another independence referendum.  

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4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

There could be no guarantee that Scotland could continue under the EU umbrella for ever just like no region of the UK could ever be guaranteed that. 

...and yet, the promise *was* made, it could be argued that it was why the "No" campaign prevailed.

 

4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The truth is the timing of another Scottish independence is out of Scottish people's hands and it will be English voters who will decide if there is another hung Westminster Parliament after a General Election.

Westminster is stuffed with MPs who got there by claiming to be staunch defenders of the "will of the people"...

 

...if a pro-independence party wins on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there will be a referendum.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Magilla said:

...and yet, the promise *was* made, it could be argued that it was why the "No" campaign prevailed.

 

Westminster is stuffed with MPs who got there by claiming to be staunch defenders of the "will of the people"...

 

...if a pro-independence party wins on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there will be a referendum.

 

 

It's  not in the gift of a pro independence  party to promise to hold a Scottish independence referendum.  Another Scottish independence referendum will not be granted in the current Westminster Parliament regardless of the results of any regional elections.  An eighty seat Tory majority in the current Westminster Parliament makes that a certainty.  Scotland have more chance of qualifying for a football World Cup than getting an independence referendum anytime soon.  

Edited by West 77

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, West 77 said:

It's  not in the gift of a pro independence  party to promise to hold a Scottish independence referendum.

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

 

Quote

Another Scottish independence referendum will not be granted in the current Westminster Parliament regardless of the results of any regional elections.  An eighty seat Tory majority in the current Westminster Parliament makes that a certainty.  Scotland have more chance of qualifying for a football World Cup than getting an independence referendum anytime soon.  

Given your propensity for getting it wrong... maybe we'll see! :thumbsup:

 

Does make a complete mockery of your democratic creds though, little more than saying you'd have been happy if the EU had legally prevented the UK from being able to Brexit :rolleyes:

 

Forcing such an arrangement simply isn't going to fly for long.

Edited by Magilla

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17 minutes ago, Magilla said:

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

 

Given your propensity for getting it wrong... maybe we'll see! :thumbsup:

 

Does make a complete mockery of your democratic creds though, little more than saying you'd have been happy if the EU had legally prevented the UK from being able to Brexit :rolleyes:

 

Forcing such an arrangement simply isn't going to fly for long.

I don't think I've got anything wrong including the legal situation of who has the authority to grant a Scottish independence referendum. I don't think I'm wrong in thinking a Tory party led by Boris Johnson are not going to give the SNP any favours given the fact they blocked the implementation of Brexit at every opportunity. I don't think I'm wrong  that I believe hardcore  English remainers favour Scottish  independence in order to have another complaint about Brexit and to blame leave voters.  I understand why people voted to remain in the EU and respect their choice but that debate should have ended. I support the Union which has been together much longer than the UK was a member of the EU.  The last thing the UK needs at the moment after the Brexit fallout and the consequences of a once in one hundred pandemic is another Scottish referendum which will distract the UK Government from policies  needed for recovering from covid - 19 and  distract them from making the most of post Brexit opportunities. The UK needs a Scottish independent referendum like it needs a hole in the head.

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14 minutes ago, Magilla said:

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right. What is being disputed is whether Scotland will be allowed by Westminster to have another referendum so soon after the other one especially as it was meant to be a once in a lifetime thing. In the past referendum the majority voted "no" even though new voters of 16-18 years were allowed to vote to try and skew the result in favour of a "yes" outcome. Those new voters also voted in the majority for "no".

 

The 1998 Scotland act states that matters relating to the the Union of the two countries can only be determined by Westminster. Even the Scottish courts have declined to rule that the the Scottish Parliament have the right to call an independence referendum without permission from westminster. No doubt that will come to the fore again when the elections are over and a new parliament sits.

 

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Posted (edited)
Quote

I don't think I'm wrong in thinking a Tory party led by Boris Johnson are not going to give the SNP any favours given the fact they blocked the implementation of Brexit at every opportunity.

Brexit is a gift for the SNP and Scottish independence, the SNP only tried to block Boris' utterly disastrous implementation... and they were right to try to do so.

 

Even Boris is trying to do that now! :hihi:

 

15 minutes ago, apelike said:

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate..

So... it *is* their right :?

 

Quote

but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right.

...and?

 

That's equally true of the promises made by the various leave campaigns during the 2016 referendum, and the "no" campaigns in the 2014 referendum...

 

...didn't stop them making them!

 

Edited by Magilla

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3 minutes ago, Magilla said:

So... it *is* their right :?

No, they don't have the right to promise a referendum... honest... :)

 

3 minutes ago, Magilla said:

...and?

 

That's equally true of the promises made by the various leave campaigns during the 2016 referendum, and the "no" campaigns in the 2014 referendum...

 

...didn't stop them making them!

Promises and rights have two different meanings as rights are usually embedded in law. Any political party in Scotland can promise anything but it still does not make it their "right" though as any rights are legally determined by Parliament and Westminster. 

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The reality is the SNP or any pro independence party can't make up their own conditions or rules in order to get another Scottish referendum legally authorised.  They had their chance for independence in 2014 and their own electorate decided not to take the opportunity. 

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11 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The reality is the SNP or any pro independence party can't make up their own conditions or rules in order to get another Scottish referendum legally authorised.

Is it a good look for a populist government, elected on the back of respecting democracy, sovereignty, the right of self determination and "the will of the people" to deny all of the above to someone else?

 

11 minutes ago, West 77 said:

They had their chance for independence in 2014 and their own electorate decided not to take the opportunity. 

Based on a promise that turned out to be false.

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Post(s) have been removed because they could be considered to breach our Terms of Service or Forum Rules.  There was a change of a quote which we do not allow on the forum therefore additional posts that were in the chain had to be removed.

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