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Scotland And Independence.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Organgrinder said:

Did they notify you of this by letter?

You have no more knowledge than anyone else who would be admitted and there are many major problems to sort out before Europe could even vote on this.

Europe's track record speed-wise for getting things done are are also discouraging as witness the vaccine rollout.

Everyone who is peeved at the UK leaving Europe, wants to have Scotland leave the UK as a punishment but that doesn't mean it will be in Scotland's best interests.

No, you can take it that I take my news and opinion pieces regularly, from across Europe, in several languages.


Going back several years, as well: the topic of an independent Scotland acceding to EU membership has been discussed by politicians at length across the EU for the past 7 or 8 years.

 

* at the time of the 1st Indyref in 2014,

* then again throughout the Brexit campaign from late 2015 (“material change in circumstances” is the expression to look for),

* then again following the 2016 EUref as Scotland had voted significantly in favour of remain (now an actual “material change”)

* then again when Catalonia was making a separatist move in late 2017 due to the obvious parallel (did it stay in the EU if it became independent? if not, could it rejoin and how? Etc.)

* and ever since, as polls continue to show ever more support for independence in Scotland, never less so than since January (those fishermen have been throwing an awful lot of noise).


Get ready to hear about it still more, on the run up to the Scottish Parliament elections in 2 months.


Europe moves as fast or slow as circumstances warrant. You’ve shown me that vaccine rollout, I’m raising you the EU withdrawal of its intention of notification about breaching Art.16 TCA within hours of disclosing that intention, and the start of proceedings against the UK within days of the UK actually breaching Art.16 TCA for the second time (do we count “doing nothing about the first breach” as the EU being slow, or can we ascribe it to tolerance?)

 

I’m not peeved at the UK leaving Europe. I’m long past caring (you really should be able to spot the difference by now). Nor do I wish Scotland to leave the UK as ‘punishment’.

 

I’m simply OK with people’s right to self-determination, and that cuts both ways: OK with the English people to self-determine to leave the EU, OK with the Scottish people to self-determine to leave the UK. Likewise the Welsh people, Norn’Irish people, Catalonian people, Corsican people (etc)

 

I’m not sure what your problem with that notion is, tbh. But clearly, it looks like you have one with it?

Edited by L00b

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2 hours ago, Janus said:

Alex Salmon launches new party. He said the aim was to  build "a super majority for independence"

 

I wounder if Nicola Stergeon saw that one coming.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-56539696

Sour grapes and revenge  is his motivation rather than independence. I'm not a Nicola Sturgeon fan but I don't think she has done a lot wrong regarding Alex Salmond after being put in an awkward situation which was not of her making.  

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He will split the vote and let in another party. He is another Nigel Farage.

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16 minutes ago, El Cid said:

He will split the vote and let in another party. He is another Nigel Farage.

He's no Nigel Farage because Nigel Farage is a winner and  achieved his aim of the UK leaving the EU.   Alex Salmond has more in common with the loser Robert Kilroy Silk who launched a new party called Veritas.  Even with the help of Joan Collins the Veritas party didn't last long.

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I’ve got a feeling Salmond’s new party won’t make much difference to the the SNP.  Can’t see many women voting for him. It wouldn’t surprise me if another woman comes forward before the election making a complaint against him.  


However I would like to see Sturgeon lose votes so I hope I’m wrong.

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13 hours ago, West 77 said:

He's no Nigel Farage because Nigel Farage is a winner and  achieved his aim of the UK leaving the EU.   Alex Salmond has more in common with the loser Robert Kilroy Silk who launched a new party called Veritas.  Even with the help of Joan Collins the Veritas party didn't last long.

He took the SNP  to a majority in the scottish parliament something the method of electing them was designed to make difficult. He might not have got the ultimate win of independence but they are getting closer and he's the one who took the first, biggest step. 

 

If he's started his new party out of spite and revenge and both parties disolve into bitterness and rancour then it will probably fail and damage the cause of independence. If the two parties can, even informally, work together  they could start to appeal to slightly different people and widen the appeal of independence.

 

If both parties can make a success of this then you have an independence supporting  government party and opposition party that would be a major plus in a post-independence Scotland. 

 

If that happens then it's going to force the other parties into supporting a more federalist solution and that will feed back into the English and Welsh parties.Firstly Labour and the Lib Dems and eventually even the Conservatives will have to change. 

 

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Strange how many people there are out there who want self determination when it's us leaving the EU but not when it's the Scots leaving the union. Personally I didn't want the one and don't want the other. What this world needs to try and deal with the problems here now, and those coming down the line, are fewer borders, not more.

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20 minutes ago, Shreddie said:

Strange how many people there are out there who want self determination when it's us leaving the EU but not when it's the Scots leaving the union. Personally I didn't want the one and don't want the other. What this world needs to try and deal with the problems here now, and those coming down the line, are fewer borders, not more.

I don't think that is very true though as according to YouGov only around 46% of the English and Welsh wish Scotland to remain part of the UK and around 34% say it's up to Scotland to decide.

 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-english-and-welsh-people-feel-about-scotlan

 

Don't forget the EU referendum was for the whole of the UK whereas any Scottish one will be for Scotland alone.

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6 hours ago, andyofborg said:

He took the SNP  to a majority in the scottish parliament something the method of electing them was designed to make difficult. He might not have got the ultimate win of independence but they are getting closer and he's the one who took the first, biggest step. 

 

If he's started his new party out of spite and revenge and both parties disolve into bitterness and rancour then it will probably fail and damage the cause of independence. If the two parties can, even informally, work together  they could start to appeal to slightly different people and widen the appeal of independence.

 

If both parties can make a success of this then you have an independence supporting  government party and opposition party that would be a major plus in a post-independence Scotland. 

 

If that happens then it's going to force the other parties into supporting a more federalist solution and that will feed back into the English and Welsh parties.Firstly Labour and the Lib Dems and eventually even the Conservatives will have to change. 

 

It makes no difference how many pro independence parties get seats in the Scottish parliament because they will not get another referendum anytime soon while the Tories have a big majority in the Westminster parliament. The best the independence brigade can hope for is an hung parliament after a General Election in a situation where the SNP are King makers. Regarding Alex Salmond, if he was genuinely interested in Scotland becoming independent then he would have kept out of politics all together. The truth is Alex Salmond is damaged goods and is working for the RT Russian propaganda broadcaster because a major UK broadcaster wouldn't touch him with a bargepole.  The conflict between  Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond is only going to  make more Scottish voters wake up and smell the coffee and realise Scottish independence is nothing more than a fantasy and vanity project for Scottish politicians who don't really have the best interest of their country at heart.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, West 77 said:

It makes no difference how many pro independence parties get seats in the Scottish parliament because they will not get another referendum anytime soon while the Tories have a big majority in the Westminster parliament.

This notion is purely a result of your naivety, it's not a workable/viable plan of action... and Westminster knows it.

 

Action along those lines would simply accelerate/provoke a break-up, more than prevent it.

 

If the SNP (or any independence party) wins power on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there *will* be a referendum!

 

Whether independence would prevail is another story.

 

That you, of all people, should be suggesting it's OK for Scotland to be kept forever in an arrangement, despite it's people giving a clear indication they wish decide whether to end it, simply beggars belief... it would be tantamount to the UK being denied the ability to Brexit, and we all know how you would feel about that! :loopy:

Edited by Magilla

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6 minutes ago, Magilla said:

This notion is purely a result of your naivety, it's not a workable workable or viable plan of action... and Westminster knows it.

 

Action along those lines would simply accelerate/provoke a break-up, more than prevent it.

 

If the SNP (or any independence party) wins power on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there *will* be a referendum!

 

Whether independence would prevail is another story.

 

That you, of all people, should be suggesting it's OK for Scotland to be kept forever in an arrangement, despite it's people giving a clear indication they wish decide whether to end it, simply beggars belief... it would be tantamount to the UK being denied the ability to Brexit, and we all know how you would feel about that! :loopy:

You seem to have forgotten Scotland had a once in generation independence referendum election in 2014 in which their people voted to  stay part of the UK and the UK held a once in a generation referendum in 2016 in which the UK people voted to leave the EU.  If remain had won the 2016 EU referendum then Brexit wouldn't have happened and if leave had won the 2014 Scottish independence referendum then Scotland would no longer be part of the UK.

 

Quote

SNP leader Alex Salmond has said the Scottish referendum is a "once in a generation opportunity".

Speaking to Andrew Marr he said that a simple majority, however close, would be accepted by both sides in the campaign and there would be a "generational" gap before another independence referendum.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-scotland-29196661

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