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Scotland And Independence.

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4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

There could be no guarantee that Scotland could continue under the EU umbrella for ever just like no region of the UK could ever be guaranteed that. 

...and yet, the promise *was* made, it could be argued that it was why the "No" campaign prevailed.

 

4 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The truth is the timing of another Scottish independence is out of Scottish people's hands and it will be English voters who will decide if there is another hung Westminster Parliament after a General Election.

Westminster is stuffed with MPs who got there by claiming to be staunch defenders of the "will of the people"...

 

...if a pro-independence party wins on the back of a promise to hold a referendum, there will be a referendum.

 

 

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53 minutes ago, West 77 said:

It's  not in the gift of a pro independence  party to promise to hold a Scottish independence referendum.

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

 

Quote

Another Scottish independence referendum will not be granted in the current Westminster Parliament regardless of the results of any regional elections.  An eighty seat Tory majority in the current Westminster Parliament makes that a certainty.  Scotland have more chance of qualifying for a football World Cup than getting an independence referendum anytime soon.  

Given your propensity for getting it wrong... maybe we'll see! :thumbsup:

 

Does make a complete mockery of your democratic creds though, little more than saying you'd have been happy if the EU had legally prevented the UK from being able to Brexit :rolleyes:

 

Forcing such an arrangement simply isn't going to fly for long.

Edited by Magilla

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14 minutes ago, Magilla said:

It's their right to go to the electorate with the promise to hold an independence referendum.

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right. What is being disputed is whether Scotland will be allowed by Westminster to have another referendum so soon after the other one especially as it was meant to be a once in a lifetime thing. In the past referendum the majority voted "no" even though new voters of 16-18 years were allowed to vote to try and skew the result in favour of a "yes" outcome. Those new voters also voted in the majority for "no".

 

The 1998 Scotland act states that matters relating to the the Union of the two countries can only be determined by Westminster. Even the Scottish courts have declined to rule that the the Scottish Parliament have the right to call an independence referendum without permission from westminster. No doubt that will come to the fore again when the elections are over and a new parliament sits.

 

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I don't think I'm wrong in thinking a Tory party led by Boris Johnson are not going to give the SNP any favours given the fact they blocked the implementation of Brexit at every opportunity.

Brexit is a gift for the SNP and Scottish independence, the SNP only tried to block Boris' utterly disastrous implementation... and they were right to try to do so.

 

Even Boris is trying to do that now! :hihi:

 

15 minutes ago, apelike said:

It's not their right though. They have a right to go to the electorate..

So... it *is* their right :?

 

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but it is a false promise to tell them they will hold an independence referendum without first securing that right.

...and?

 

That's equally true of the promises made by the various leave campaigns during the 2016 referendum, and the "no" campaigns in the 2014 referendum...

 

...didn't stop them making them!

 

Edited by Magilla

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3 minutes ago, Magilla said:

So... it *is* their right :?

No, they don't have the right to promise a referendum... honest... :)

 

3 minutes ago, Magilla said:

...and?

 

That's equally true of the promises made by the various leave campaigns during the 2016 referendum, and the "no" campaigns in the 2014 referendum...

 

...didn't stop them making them!

Promises and rights have two different meanings as rights are usually embedded in law. Any political party in Scotland can promise anything but it still does not make it their "right" though as any rights are legally determined by Parliament and Westminster. 

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11 minutes ago, West 77 said:

The reality is the SNP or any pro independence party can't make up their own conditions or rules in order to get another Scottish referendum legally authorised.

Is it a good look for a populist government, elected on the back of respecting democracy, sovereignty, the right of self determination and "the will of the people" to deny all of the above to someone else?

 

11 minutes ago, West 77 said:

They had their chance for independence in 2014 and their own electorate decided not to take the opportunity. 

Based on a promise that turned out to be false.

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Post(s) have been removed because they could be considered to breach our Terms of Service or Forum Rules.  There was a change of a quote which we do not allow on the forum therefore additional posts that were in the chain had to be removed.

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It looks like claims that the government won't allow a Scottish independence referendum are out of date.

 

PM will allow second referendum if SNP wins, says Sturgeon

Quote

The UK government has quietly dropped the use of “once-in-a-generation” language around the referendum due to fears it may give Scottish voters who are still undecided about independence – but keen on Sturgeon’s other policies – a licence to vote for the SNP if they believe there is no chance a referendum will be granted.

But Johnson is said to be adamant in private that he will not be the prime minister who permits a referendum and the Conservatives will hammer home the message that holding such a poll during a pandemic would be deeply irresponsible.

Reports in the Sunday Times suggested that, while the UK government’s position remained that it was opposed to granting Holyrood the requisite powers to hold a legal referendum, senior Tories believe this would be hard to sustain should the SNP triumph on 6 May, and that Johnson would be better off forcing a vote during the economic upheaval likely to follow the pandemic to underline the risks of Scotland leaving the UK.

Don't read too much into reports Johnson is adamant about something. He was adamant he wouldn't allow a third Heathrow runway, was adamant he wouldn't put a border in the Irish Sea, etc. He has a long history of doing the opposite of things he's adamant about.

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Regardless of the rhetoric and the imperial fantasies of the conservative party and their supporters, if the pro-independence parties secure a majority in the scottish elections then the westminster governemnt won't really have much of an alternative than to grant a section 30 referendum. 

 

If they refuse, it will create a running sore which will be exploited by the pro independence parties at every opportunity.  The scottish government would likely organise it's own referendum and while it wouldn't be binding, a positive result would really leave the westminster government in a no-win position.  

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, West 77 said:

 

The truth is the results of the un coming domestic Scottish elections are irrelevant to the Scottish independence fantasy.

In your dreams, not in reality.

 

1 hour ago, West 77 said:

Any Scottish Government organised  non binding  referendum would be boycotted by those wishing to remain part of the UK.  As far as pro UK Scottish voters are concerned the debate was ended in 2014. 

It was... until Brexit, when a central promise of the remain campaign in 2014 was broken.

 

There's some irony in relation to Brexit and unicorns though, that unicorn in the UK coat of arms is Scottish! :hihi:

 

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This government is so English nationalist that unless something changes it does feel like it will be England on its own at some point. When my kids have grown up I can feel a pre-emptive move to Wales coming, we can both work from home and have plenty of marketable skills.

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4 hours ago, West 77 said:

 

 

 

Any Scottish Government organised  non binding  referendum would be boycotted by those wishing to remain part of the UK. 

Not sure that is really a sensible strategy. Given the closeness of the polls, then the turnout would probably large enough so that the result couldn't be dismissed. 

4 hours ago, West 77 said:

As far as pro UK Scottish voters are concerned the debate was ended in 2014. 

The pro-independence voters don't see that though. Simply treating them and their opinions with the contempt you seem to show for them isn't going to change many minds only harden attitudes.  

 

I don't see that you have made much of an effort to justify the current constitutional arrangements which clearly aren't working well for anyone except a few rich people, the MP friends and sundry lickspittles. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Magilla said:

 

There's some irony in relation to Brexit and unicorns though, that unicorn in the UK coat of arms is Scottish! :hihi:

 

That explains so much as it's likely to be the only unicorn which comes from Brexit. 

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