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Scotland And Independence.

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17 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

Pretty much all the arguments made for Brexit can be made for Scottish independence. 

It's going to be quite difficult for a group of people who have been making and justifying those arguments for the last 5 years to credibily argue the opposite point in an independence referendum.

 

Most people agree "government" across the entire union generally isn't working very well. The option of independence or the status quo is likely to be tight and we'll be back here again in 5 or 6 years. 

 

If there is a genuine desire to save the union then some change to the constitutional settlement is needed.  Because of the haphazard way our constituation has developed then tweaking one bit on it's own causes contradictions and problems which take years to iron out. Maybe it's time to be radical and deal with a lot of the other problems as well.  

 

 

Couldn’t agree more, it’s the downsides of Brexit times 10. 
I also agree with the need for constitutional reform, but I doubt that will satisfy the SNP.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Westie1889 said:

Couldn’t agree more, it’s the downsides of Brexit times 10. 
I also agree with the need for constitutional reform, but I doubt that will satisfy the SNP.

 

 

It doesn't have to satisfy the SNP, it has to satisfy a majority of the the voters.  

 

The people at the extreme ends of both sides of the argument will never be satisfied with anything other than complete victory, It's the people in the middle who need to be satisfied. 

 

As far as I understand it, the mainstream Welsh nationalist view is basically home rule rather than full independence. Done properly constitutional reform  would allow those in the scottish nationalist movement who share a similar view a platform to make their case and demonstrate that it works. 

 

A more positive nationalism which values local identity but also acknowledges that sharing bits of soverignty with others produces more benefits than losses wouldn't be a bad thing and be a benefit across all the nations in the union. 

 

Edited by andyofborg

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The 'leader' may not be around much longer to lead the independent Scotland campaign.

Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

Scotland's leader is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56259056

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1 hour ago, Janus said:

The 'leader' may not be around much longer to lead the independent Scotland campaign.

Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

Scotland's leader is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56259056

So, to review, a conservative politician is asking a leader to resign. For lying. Wait until he finds out what they do in Westminster. 

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It would be an amazing turn of events if the push for Scottish independence was to falter due to a very public falling out between its two main protagonists.

 

The 3rd party evidence yesterday that backs up some of Salmonds key claims does seem to be a major problem for Sturgeon, it will be interesting what she says today.

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Posted (edited)

As a non Scot - viewing from a distance - there seems to be an air of decay in Holyrood. Economic, healthcare, and education issues are all subservient to independence. All and any problems will vanish should they be completely uncoupled from the rest of the UK. Any income shortfall will be gladly made up by largesse from Brussels. 

 

The problems are compunded by infighting within the SNP. The two major personalities (there don't seem to be any others....) are embroiled in a legal spat which finds the party divided, and whatever the outcome governance will still suffer. To an outsider Scotland has become a monoculture, but I sense that support for the SNP is starting to drift.

 

South of the border we are expecting hard economic consequences when everything unwinds post Covid restrictions, and there will be criticism (as ever) of Westminster. North, thre will be criticisms of Holyrood especially in areas which have been devolved. If wee Nicola does go it will be seen as an immediate plus for the unionists. If she hangs on but presides over a gradual slide it will be seen as a long term plus. 

 

For some, it's like watching a fight between two boxers, neither of whom you like. The longer it goes on, and the more blows are landed, the greater the glee. Politics is a grubby business.   

Edited by Cyclecar
Grammar

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1 hour ago, Cyclecar said:

As a non Scot - viewing from a distance - there seems to be an air of decay in Holyrood. Economic, healthcare, and education issues are all subservient to independence. All and any problems will vanish should they be completely uncoupled from the rest of the UK. Any income shortfall will be gladly made up by largesse from Brussels. 

 

The problems are compunded by infighting within the SNP. The two major personalities (there don't seem to be any others....) are embroiled in a legal spat which finds the party divided, and whatever the outcome governance will still suffer. To an outsider Scotland has become a monoculture, but I sense that support for the SNP is starting to drift.

 

South of the border we are expecting hard economic consequences when everything unwinds post Covid restrictions, and there will be criticism (as ever) of Westminster. North, thre will be criticisms of Holyrood especially in areas which have been devolved. If wee Nicola does go it will be seen as an immediate plus for the unionists. If she hangs on but presides over a gradual slide it will be seen as a long term plus. 

 

For some, it's like watching a fight between two boxers, neither of whom you like. The longer it goes on, and the more blows are landed, the greater the satisfaction. Politics is a grubby business.   

I've become a bit of fan of sturgeon, I've thought she comes across far better than most Westminster equivalents. However this spat with Salmond isn't helping things. If she had faith in rest of her party (can't name any other SNP MSPs) she could really steal a march on the Scottish Tories, and potentially Westminster too, by resigning. "Yes, I made a mistake. I lied but unlike Boris et al who lied about this this this and this, I'm not going to take you for mugs I'm going to resign". What a thing that would be. 

 

She won't of course. She's like alot of politicians the world over, a bit giddy on power and no doubt feels she has a bigger job to do and this particular bit of bull**** should be swallowed by everyone for the greater good. Couple that with the fact she's a lawyer it will be spun that she didn't tell the truth rather than lied. Bill Clinton did much the same.

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OT, a bit, I suppose, but anyone notice both the protagonists have 'fishy' names?

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On 03/03/2021 at 11:22, RollingJ said:

OT, a bit, I suppose, but anyone notice both the protagonists have 'fishy' names?

Both seem to be floundering atm

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Is she off the hook now?

 

oopsy

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Unsure, but the outcome of the investigation may       sink er.

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