Scotland And Independence.

[Janus 28]

7 hours ago, Annie Bynnol said:

I have got a story about events in a far away country.

The Old Pretender and the Young Pretender are the two most powerful and loved people in the land.

One day they fall out and their relatives and friends in high places have to take sides.

Accusations of lying and cheating, legal trickery, nepotism, censorship will lead to blood on the carpet.

How will their loyal subjects respond?

How will the evil superpower next door react?

Have they not learnt from their predecessors who did the same things and our heros  defeated?

 

Do I send the script to Holyrood or Holywood?

 

What about the great pretender?

[Longcol 598]

2 hours ago, RollingJ said:

Well, as we are regularly told on here - now we are not in the EU (as the UK) we are insignificant, so what would they be - even inside it? Still minnows trying to avoid the bigger fish.

They'd be part of a group that co-operates and tries to get the minnows to grow into bigger fish.

[Annie Bynnol 612]

3 hours ago, Janus said:

What about the great pretender?

Boris?

[L00b 441]

13 hours ago, Longcol said:

They'd be part of a group that co-operates and tries to get the minnows to grow into bigger fish.

I think how the EU26 consistently maintained solidarity with Ireland over the last 5 years, likewise how quickly Brussels corrected its wayward way about Art.16 after getting that warning call from Dublin, won't have escaped the attention of many in Scotland.

[Westie1889 0]

I honestly can’t see how Scotland rejoins the EU.

 

It will be very interesting when the SNP publishes its economic plans as that was seen as its Achilles heal in the last vote, especially questions around currency.

 

They will have to join the euro but are miles away from meeting the necessary criteria, and to get to the right place they would need a level of austerity not seen since the Greek crisis.

Some feel the EU may relax it’s rules but the euro is not a risk-free currency with questions still hanging over its long term viability so I don’t this they would or should increase that risk.

 

Also there seems to have been a growing reluctance in the wealthier countries to admit more poorer countries who would be met beneficiaries of which Scotland would be one.

 

If there is another vote it could be a reverse of the Brexit scenario where people understand more about what they are voting for before they do it which I think will be a difficult thing for the SNP to surmount.

 

That said these things are not always logical, and the rabid level of nationalism and anti-English hatred north of the border could force through even when it’s clear it would be a disaster.

[andyofborg 11]

36 minutes ago, Westie1889 said:

That said these things are not always logical, and the rabid level of nationalism and anti-English hatred north of the border could force through even when it’s clear it would be a disaster.

Pretty much all the arguments made for Brexit can be made for Scottish independence. 

It's going to be quite difficult for a group of people who have been making and justifying those arguments for the last 5 years to credibily argue the opposite point in an independence referendum.

 

Most people agree "government" across the entire union generally isn't working very well. The option of independence or the status quo is likely to be tight and we'll be back here again in 5 or 6 years. 

 

If there is a genuine desire to save the union then some change to the constitutional settlement is needed.  Because of the haphazard way our constituation has developed then tweaking one bit on it's own causes contradictions and problems which take years to iron out. Maybe it's time to be radical and deal with a lot of the other problems as well.  

 

 

[Westie1889 0]

17 minutes ago, andyofborg said:

Pretty much all the arguments made for Brexit can be made for Scottish independence. 

It's going to be quite difficult for a group of people who have been making and justifying those arguments for the last 5 years to credibily argue the opposite point in an independence referendum.

 

Most people agree "government" across the entire union generally isn't working very well. The option of independence or the status quo is likely to be tight and we'll be back here again in 5 or 6 years. 

 

If there is a genuine desire to save the union then some change to the constitutional settlement is needed.  Because of the haphazard way our constituation has developed then tweaking one bit on it's own causes contradictions and problems which take years to iron out. Maybe it's time to be radical and deal with a lot of the other problems as well.  

 

 

Couldn’t agree more, it’s the downsides of Brexit times 10. 
I also agree with the need for constitutional reform, but I doubt that will satisfy the SNP.

 

 

[andyofborg 11]

1 hour ago, Westie1889 said:

Couldn’t agree more, it’s the downsides of Brexit times 10. 
I also agree with the need for constitutional reform, but I doubt that will satisfy the SNP.

 

 

It doesn't have to satisfy the SNP, it has to satisfy a majority of the the voters.  

 

The people at the extreme ends of both sides of the argument will never be satisfied with anything other than complete victory, It's the people in the middle who need to be satisfied. 

 

As far as I understand it, the mainstream Welsh nationalist view is basically home rule rather than full independence. Done properly constitutional reform  would allow those in the scottish nationalist movement who share a similar view a platform to make their case and demonstrate that it works. 

 

A more positive nationalism which values local identity but also acknowledges that sharing bits of soverignty with others produces more benefits than losses wouldn't be a bad thing and be a benefit across all the nations in the union. 

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by andyofborg

[Janus 28]

The 'leader' may not be around much longer to lead the independent Scotland campaign.

Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

Scotland's leader is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56259056

[tinfoilhat 11]

1 hour ago, Janus said:

The 'leader' may not be around much longer to lead the independent Scotland campaign.

Nicola Sturgeon is facing calls to resign after new documents raised further questions about her involvement in the Alex Salmond saga.

Scotland's leader is to face a Holyrood inquiry into the affair on Wednesday.

Scottish Conservative leader Douglas Ross said there was "no longer any doubt that Nicola Sturgeon lied to the Scottish Parliament and broke the ministerial code on numerous counts."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56259056

So, to review, a conservative politician is asking a leader to resign. For lying. Wait until he finds out what they do in Westminster. 

[Westie1889 0]

It would be an amazing turn of events if the push for Scottish independence was to falter due to a very public falling out between its two main protagonists.

 

The 3rd party evidence yesterday that backs up some of Salmonds key claims does seem to be a major problem for Sturgeon, it will be interesting what she says today.

[Cyclecar 24]

As a non Scot - viewing from a distance - there seems to be an air of decay in Holyrood. Economic, healthcare, and education issues are all subservient to independence. All and any problems will vanish should they be completely uncoupled from the rest of the UK. Any income shortfall will be gladly made up by largesse from Brussels. 

 

The problems are compunded by infighting within the SNP. The two major personalities (there don't seem to be any others....) are embroiled in a legal spat which finds the party divided, and whatever the outcome governance will still suffer. To an outsider Scotland has become a monoculture, but I sense that support for the SNP is starting to drift.

 

South of the border we are expecting hard economic consequences when everything unwinds post Covid restrictions, and there will be criticism (as ever) of Westminster. North, thre will be criticisms of Holyrood especially in areas which have been devolved. If wee Nicola does go it will be seen as an immediate plus for the unionists. If she hangs on but presides over a gradual slide it will be seen as a long term plus. 

 

For some, it's like watching a fight between two boxers, neither of whom you like. The longer it goes on, and the more blows are landed, the greater the glee. Politics is a grubby business.   

Edited March 3, 2021 by Cyclecar
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