Enviromental Protection Act 1990 (Desposited Litter In A Place Open To The Air)

[BobOfRoth 0]

Can anyone help me with a small problem please?

I got at notice from the council accusing me of dropping litter out of my car window. They say that I dropped a cigarette end out of my car whilst driving and I deny this. For lots or reasons this is not something I would do but thats besides the point right now as I am more than happy to go to court about this but I wanted a few peoples opinion on some points in the letter.

1. The accusation says that I dropped the litter whilst turning into a car park with Green gates but the place where they say I did it has massive BLACK gates.

2. They state that the place where I dropped the litter is in Rotherham but it is in Sheffield

3. A minor point but I feel its worth mentioning,m the spelling is terrible and not in the least bit professional.

The council say "The evidence we hold is an eye witness account from a council employee etc" and then go on to say "The officer had a clear and unobstructed view of the incident"..

My first question is if the council employee had a clear view how come he or she didnt notice the very large black gates and instead said they were green? My second question would be is this worth fighting? Im happy to go to court but do the courts generally just back up the council or would I get a fair hearing? Sorry for the long post but hope someone here can help.

[Robin-H 11]

Surely they would need more than just an eye witness account - like cctv footage etc. 

[Happ 25]

Innocent until proven guilty. If you didn’t do it, nothing to worry about. Do you even smoke?

[apelike 10]

First I would question if this letter is legitimate. You also do not state if the Council are taking it to court as the letter should also state the relevant Act that applies to the incident, what bit applies to you and also give details of who to contact to dispute the incident and time frame for disputes. Not only that but tracing the owner of the car is not proof of who was driving it at the time and I doubt that that information has to be given as its not a traffic act violation.

 

Too many things here do not add up!

 

Just to amend my post>

 

The Act does state that its the owner of the vehicle that is responsible for any breach of the litter act under section F188A:

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88A

Edited November 9, 2019 by apelike

[BobOfRoth 0]

2 minutes ago, Happ said:

Innocent until proven guilty. If you didn’t do it, nothing to worry about. Do you even smoke?

I should have mentioned I do smoke around 20 a week but NEVER in the car because the car isnt technically mine and so I feel an extra duty of care when using it.

15 minutes ago, Robin-H said:

Surely they would need more than just an eye witness account - like cctv footage etc. 

From the letter there is no mention of cctv just a council employee eye witness.

[Rollypolly 51]

This sounds odd to me. I would query it. 

[BobOfRoth 0]

17 minutes ago, apelike said:

First I would question if this letter is legitimate. You also do not state if the Council are taking it to court as the letter should also state the relevant Act that applies to the incident and also give details of who to contact to dispute the incident and time frame for disputes. Not only that but tracing the owner of the car is not proof of who was driving it at the time.

 

Too many things here do not add up!

Im sure the letter is legitimate despite the poor spelling and the council taking the action is Doncaster for some reason. It says working in partnership with Rotherham and NE Lincolnshire council and the act they are quoting is

Environmental Protection Act 1990 Section 33 & 87

Depositing Litter in place open to the air and left it.

Im hopeful that I can argue my point that I was not responsible for the litter and to be honest after speaking with a couple of people it seems the council often make "mistakes" and prosecute the wrong person in cases like this.

 

[BobOfRoth 0]

11 minutes ago, Rollypolly said:

This sounds odd to me. I would query it. 

I did call the phone number on the letter to see what it was all about. I should have said, It is the second letter I have got about this. The first was asking things like Who was in the car, Who was driving, Who else is allowed to drive it, Who the passengers were in the car at the time. The letter I got today is a follow up with the exact same questions on it but in it they acknowledge my response to the original accusation. I said I did not do it and they have responded with "Please be advised that the evidence we hold is an eye witness account from a council officer. The incident was recorded by the officer in accordance with the Police and Criminal Evidence act 1984 and their statement is the evidence that would be used if this matter were to be referred to Magistrates court"

 

[DavidFrance 19]

Since no-one replying to this thread has so far owned up to having legal qualifications...and you are simply asking for observations...I would say this: It is simply a case of "Did I do this?  Answer No. Do I feel strongly enough to refuse to pay the fixed penalty but to contest it in a Magistrates Court?  That's for you alone to decide but I'd advise you bear the following in mind:  Legal representation would probably get you off but you have no hope of legal aid (now the Tories have virtually eliminated it) and it might cost you more than the Fixed Penalty if you cannot persuade the Court to award you costs; Secondly a Court fine would almost certainly be higher than the Fixed Penalty. And you could be made to pay THEIR costs. Third, you would have a lot of hassle. But if you won you would feel vindicated. If you lost, an appeal would be expensive.  But I agree, if you didn't drop the fag end then it is an injustice. And we should not tolerate a system where some anonymous, invisible council official can, purely on his word, rack up a fixed penalty income for his bosses and, possibly, a bonus on his wages.  At least if you go to court you can insist on cross examining the official, getting him to specify his location and possibly proving that he could not possibly have seen the alleged action from his viewpoint.   Maybe your best course of action is to challenge the council now in a formal letter setting out your innocence and to hope that they will see it as too trivial an offence to merit risking  them having to pay costs.   I would also consider carefully using the word "perjury" in relation to the PACE statement of evidence.  I hope that helps your train of thought.  A close relative who IS legally qualified advises you to take photographs of the location....you, not someone else,  and to show them to the council to point out any irregularities in the witness statement and to appeal to "their better nature" and to cancel the FP ticket. She says in a similar circumstance she would not contest it if she were a smoker  (the first question a prosecutor would ask) but would contest it if she were not a smoker.  She is not allowed to air her professional opinions on Forums such as this.  One further point from me....is the witness a council employee of on the payroll of a private firm?  If so, one has to ask if they aren't running a racket. It's not unkown in relation to parking tickets.   Good luck!

[carosio 186]

Since magistrates court has been mentioned, a criminal standard of proof is required and  I would think that would be more than the just word of a council employee.

[BobOfRoth 0]

15 hours ago, carosio said:

Since magistrates court has been mentioned, a criminal standard of proof is required and  I would think that would be more than the just word of a council employee.

I hope you are right mate because otherwise any council employee can make up any old story and joe public has to just cough up and not complain.

[BobOfRoth 0]

16 hours ago, DavidFrance said:

Since no-one replying to this thread has so far owned up to having legal qualifications...and you are simply asking for observations...I would say this: It is simply a case of "Did I do this?  Answer No. Do I feel strongly enough to refuse to pay the fixed penalty but to contest it in a Magistrates Court?  That's for you alone to decide but I'd advise you bear the following in mind:  Legal representation would probably get you off but you have no hope of legal aid (now the Tories have virtually eliminated it) and it might cost you more than the Fixed Penalty if you cannot persuade the Court to award you costs; Secondly a Court fine would almost certainly be higher than the Fixed Penalty. And you could be made to pay THEIR costs. Third, you would have a lot of hassle. But if you won you would feel vindicated. If you lost, an appeal would be expensive.  But I agree, if you didn't drop the fag end then it is an injustice. And we should not tolerate a system where some anonymous, invisible council official can, purely on his word, rack up a fixed penalty income for his bosses and, possibly, a bonus on his wages.  At least if you go to court you can insist on cross examining the official, getting him to specify his location and possibly proving that he could not possibly have seen the alleged action from his viewpoint.   Maybe your best course of action is to challenge the council now in a formal letter setting out your innocence and to hope that they will see it as too trivial an offence to merit risking  them having to pay costs.   I would also consider carefully using the word "perjury" in relation to the PACE statement of evidence.  I hope that helps your train of thought.  A close relative who IS legally qualified advises you to take photographs of the location....you, not someone else,  and to show them to the council to point out any irregularities in the witness statement and to appeal to "their better nature" and to cancel the FP ticket. She says in a similar circumstance she would not contest it if she were a smoker  (the first question a prosecutor would ask) but would contest it if she were not a smoker.  She is not allowed to air her professional opinions on Forums such as this.  One further point from me....is the witness a council employee of on the payroll of a private firm?  If so, one has to ask if they aren't running a racket. It's not unkown in relation to parking tickets.   Good luck!

Thank you for your reply mate. I followed your advice and took some pics and ill be speaking with a solicitor this week. I believe I can get a 20 minute first consultation free which would help but if it goes to court Ill have to defend myself as i have very very limited funds right now but I just cant let it go and pay a fine for something I know I didnt do.

Ill definitely be mindful about accusing anyone of perjury and instead ill try to point out the council works "mistake". Hopefully the other mistakes made (the location, the colour of the gates) will be enough to swing it in my favour. By the way I think its a council employee rather than a private firm but Ill be sure to ask them just to be sure.

Big thanks for your reply mate its been a great deal of help.