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General Election 12 December.

nikki-red

This is NOT to become a second Brexit thread.

Thank you.

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22 hours ago, Albert the Cat said:

You should be asking better questions instead of sheer nonsense.  The answer is YES, the governement of the day had every right to do as they please with governement owned enterprises.  Roll forward to today, that even includes, believe it or not, the NHS.

The NHS is a public service, not an "enterprise" in the business sense.

 

If "enterprise" is one of the first words that pops into people's heads when they think of the NHS, the propaganda campaign of the last 40 years really has been successful.  The ultimate goal of propaganda is to mould people's linguistic/conceptual frameworks so that they can't even think or express a viewpoint contrary to that of the propagandist, or at least can't formulate or express a thought without it being in the terms dictated by the propagandist.

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17 minutes ago, CaptainSwing said:

The NHS is a public service, not an "enterprise" in the business sense.

 

If "enterprise" is one of the first words that pops into people's heads when they think of the NHS, the propaganda campaign of the last 40 years really has been successful.  The ultimate goal of propaganda is to mould people's linguistic/conceptual frameworks so that they can't even think or express a viewpoint contrary to that of the propagandist, or at least can't formulate or express a thought without it being in the terms dictated by the propagandist.

You what? If you think single words somehow define things into absolute constants, then you need hardening up to beyond a snowflake. 
 

Thinking of the NHS as an entity that needs to be costed and run like a business is THE first step in protecting. It costs nearly £130bn/yr to run it, it isn’t some bottomless pit that you just throw money into. Why do you think organisations like NICE exist? If you don’t see the problem then you wouldn’t know how to solve it. For me, the bottom line is, you need to raise taxes. A 1% increase in income tax, NI or VAT will give the government about £5bn extra in each instance. We need to commit more if you want to keep it. 

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49 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

You what? If you think single words somehow define things into absolute constants, then you need hardening up to beyond a snowflake. 
 

Thinking of the NHS as an entity that needs to be costed and run like a business is THE first step in protecting. It costs nearly £130bn/yr to run it, it isn’t some bottomless pit that you just throw money into. Why do you think organisations like NICE exist? If you don’t see the problem then you wouldn’t know how to solve it. For me, the bottom line is, you need to raise taxes. A 1% increase in income tax, NI or VAT will give the government about £5bn extra in each instance. We need to commit more if you want to keep it. 

Nobody has said that it doesn't need improvement I think we all agree on that. But a business is run for profit, and profit has no place in the NHS.  Any 'profit' or savings should be ploughed back into the NHS, not given away to shareholders.

 

I've recently spent some time in hospital, and talking to doctors and nurses and various services. They all have suggestions where money can be saved, (I saw plenty,) and how things can be improved, but nobody listens to them. It is all in the hands of administrators who frankly haven't a clue.  And yes, income tax and NI does need to be raised to support it. How did we get into a position where no politician dare state the bleedin' obvious? 

 

Look back pre Thatcher. The system seemed to work fairly well in those days, not just hospitals, but GPs, dentists, home care, care homes and the subsidiary services. And it was all adminstered by far less people. Thatcher introducedTory economics, internal competition, and privatisation by the back door, and the whole system went to pot. I know the demographics and other things have changed since then, but that hardly came as a surprise. She took it in a whole new direction (neoliberalism again...)using language which we lesser mortals didn't really understand because we weren't supposed to, knowing there'd have been a public outcry if we did.  Worked well didn't it?  Look at it now.

I'd rather have National Insurance than Private Insurance any day. NI should have been rising incrementally for years.

 

Incidently, Captain Swing is quite right about language, it does design and inform the way we think. Any linguist will tell you that, and it has long been known as a favoured tool of all propagandists. Re-read my statement about politicians not being able to state the obvious, and think about it.

 

 

Edited by Anna B

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30 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

You what? If you think single words somehow define things into absolute constants, then you need hardening up to beyond a snowflake. 

I don't know what "defining things into absolute constants" means.

 

But it's not just single words, it's a whole linguistic/conceptual framework.  Though it's true that individual words can be very important.

31 minutes ago, Albert the Cat said:

Thinking of the NHS as an entity that needs to be costed and run like a business is THE first step in protecting. It costs nearly £130bn/yr to run it, it isn’t some bottomless pit that you just throw money into. Why do you think organisations like NICE exist? If you don’t see the problem then you wouldn’t know how to solve it. For me, the bottom line is, you need to raise taxes. A 1% increase in income tax, NI or VAT will give the government about £5bn extra in each instance. We need to commit more if you want to keep it. 

I agree with all of that apart from the need for the NHS to be "run like a business".  There are endeavours that do need to be costed but don't fit into the conceptual category "business", and the NHS is one of them.  That's the point I'm making - a lot of people can't even think of anything these days other than in terms of it being (like) a "business", with "customers", that operates in a "market", should be driven primarily by considerations of "efficiency", etc. etc.

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15 minutes ago, Anna B said:


 

 

Look back pre Thatcher. The system seemed to work fairly well in those days, not just hospitals, but GPs, dentists, home care, care homes and the subsidiary services. And it was all adminstered by far less people. Thatcher introducedTory economics, internal competition, and privatisation by the back door, and the whole system went to pot. Re-read my statement about politicians not being able to state the obvious, and think about it.

 

 

thatcher again.

 

The world revolves around Thatcher.

 

I doubt you'll want to watch it. It's learning rather than teaching. I'd recommend to others though.

 

All 15 Lectures in the  'Power and Politics in Today’s World' course at Yale. (All about 1 hour) - the first one is an intro, so worth a watch to see if you interested in more.

 

I'm up to L6 so far.

 

first one, rest can be found from it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqvzFY72mg

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Michael_W said:

You forgot the Independant and the leftist social media stuff in your desperation to prove some point about bias, there has always been bias and there always will, even on here, you won't change certain peoples views and they won't change yours !

Perhaps I could add up the circulation figures for both sides that would really show up the amount of 'reach' of each side. 

As you say "You won't change certain peoples views" I agree with you. Your choice of words leaves it open to others who are not 'certain people' who may be influenced by bias. Thank-you. Just because bias has always been there dosen't make it right - unless you are a traditional reactionary who hates anything new, different or an innovation. 

 

I take the information from the Guardian briefing, it wasn't there. It wasn't on the BBC either.

Thats strange! as YOU may think these two biased pinko organisation would twist and promote news to show the left in a good light .

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers - not on here.

https://www.thepaperboy.com/uk/front-pages.cfm - at last, here it is.

 

The Independant - "Tactical Voters could deny Johnson majority"

 

BTW - I'm loving your use of 'desperation' not that it's true but it mimics the style of  most of the right wing stuff.

If you don't believe me look at the 'paperboy link' it actually shows how the front pages are presented. 

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1 hour ago, Flanker7 said:

Perhaps I could add up the circulation figures for both sides that would really show up the amount of 'reach' of each side. 

As you say "You won't change certain peoples views" I agree with you. Your choice of words leaves it open to others who are not 'certain people' who may be influenced by bias. Thank-you. Just because bias has always been there dosen't make it right - unless you are a traditional reactionary who hates anything new, different or an innovation. 

 

I take the information from the Guardian briefing, it wasn't there. It wasn't on the BBC either.

Thats strange! as YOU may think these two biased pinko organisation would twist and promote news to show the left in a good light .

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers - not on here.

https://www.thepaperboy.com/uk/front-pages.cfm - at last, here it is.

 

The Independant - "Tactical Voters could deny Johnson majority"

 

BTW - I'm loving your use of 'desperation' not that it's true but it mimics the style of  most of the right wing stuff.

If you don't believe me look at the 'paperboy link' it actually shows how the front pages are presented. 

Do you struggle to comprehend anything and everything, biased opinion would of course include your own bias, which of course you clearly have too, or are you going to deny that ?

Counting up circulation figures is all well and good if it's relevant and unbiased itself, what about social media bias which tends to lean to the left, does that not count because the numbers it reaches are too many to count ?

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3 hours ago, Michael_W said:

Interesting all this propaganda about the NHS, the Tory candidate in my area for the upcoming election is an NHS doctor and with that background I reckon that he is probably just as experienced in whats going on in reality than the labour candidate Ms Louise Haigh but because we still put red rosettes on donkey's in this city she will take some shifting.

I thought you disliked middle class professional types?

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11 minutes ago, Mister Gee said:

I thought you disliked middle class professional types?

Never said I liked him did I ?

What I don't like is patronising middle class socialists, those who talk about what they have fought for when they have fought for nowt ..... you'll know the sort I'm sure !

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7 minutes ago, Michael_W said:

Never said I liked him did I ?

What I don't like is patronising middle class socialists, those who talk about what they have fought for when they have fought for nowt ..... you'll know the sort I'm sure !

Bet you’re voting for him though aren’t you?

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2 hours ago, *_ash_* said:

thatcher again.

 

The world revolves around Thatcher.

 

I doubt you'll want to watch it. It's learning rather than teaching. I'd recommend to others though.

 

All 15 Lectures in the  'Power and Politics in Today’s World' course at Yale. (All about 1 hour) - the first one is an intro, so worth a watch to see if you interested in more.

 

I'm up to L6 so far.

 

first one, rest can be found from it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDqvzFY72mg

 

 

The reason is that that is when Neoliberalism started - under Thatcher. Conservatism is to Neoliberalism what Communism is to Socialism, but we don't call it that do we, in spite of words like 'Marxist' being thrown at Corbyn. Nevertheless, that is when the mess we're in now began and it is important to know that. 

 

I'll watch the thing you recommend, but not now, I'm watching the Panorama programme (BBC 1 7,30pm) about Universal Credit, and then the Question time debate at 8.30pm.

 

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11 minutes ago, Mister Gee said:

Bet you’re voting for him though aren’t you?

Nope wrong again !

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