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Thomas Cook In Financial Trouble

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27 minutes ago, willman said:

My point entirely - you knew exactly what you were doing and were willing to accept the consequences. There are thousands who may have benefitted from cheaper flight deals and not paying insurance and are now bleating because their free flights home aren't dropping them off where and when they want.

I'm not being vindictive i'm being honest -  a TC plane does cheap flights in the otherwise empty seats, and there is little cost you claim but theyr'e still losing money.

My problem is people should be protecting themselves not the Government,talk about the nanny state bail out at every opportunity.

You still don't understand. Cheap flights or package deals are usually last minute or off season. I book a year ahead so I can pick and choose dates and times of flight only. I know its subject to consolidations, flight delays or any other changes for whatever reason but both flight only and package deals were available at half the price close to departure time. Some people paid half the price I did for a flight only for a package deal.  

 

wilman, as Obelix says, you seem to have a problem about people getting cheap flight only deals. Flight only isn't usually cheap unless going by Ryan air or similar. Have a look on line and see for yourself. You just get to pick your own accommodation if you go flight only. It may be a different place or bigger for the same money. Flight only have to be booked early as a general rule not late.  They can go up and down on price as time goes by. Flight only usually increase in price until the last minute. The customer CANNOT pay the £2.50 ATOL insurance, it comes off the price of the 'ticket' or airfare. This is the responsibility of the operator not the customer. Who would quibble about £2.50 on a fare for security? 

 

I really think you need to look at prices before spreading 'fake news'.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Obelix said:

If it was a reception and flights thats a package deal and it's covered....

Exactly - but it wasn't. It was 19 flights booked on debit cards( to a tune of 9k iirc) and a seperately booked and paid for Las Vegas wedding.

So who should help with funding that , if anyone.

5 minutes ago, Chez2 said:

You still don't understand. Cheap flights or package deals are usually last minute or off season. I book a year ahead so I can pick and choose dates and times of flight only. I know its subject to consolidations, flight delays or any other changes for whatever reason but both flight only and package deals were available at half the price close to departure time. Some people paid half the price I did for a flight only for a package deal.  

 

wilman, as Obelix says, you seem to have a problem about people getting cheap flight only deals. Flight only isn't usually cheap unless going by Ryan air or similar. Have a look on line and see for yourself. You just get to pick your own accommodation if you go flight only. It may be a different place or bigger for the same money. Flight only have to be booked early as a general rule not late.  They can go up and down on price as time goes by. Flight only usually increase in price until the last minute. The customer CANNOT pay the £2.50 ATOL insurance, it comes off the price of the 'ticket' or airfare. This is the responsibility of the operator not the customer. Who would quibble about £2.50 on a fare for security? 

 

I really think you need to look at prices before spreading 'fake news'.

 

 

People choose OPTIONAL insurance, the ATOL cover is not always included in flights only - i copied a piece from the Telegraph earlier stating exactly that.

Not made up but from a  reputable media outlet.

 

I keep saying i don't have an issue with how cheap it is or who  booked what - i have an issue with people cheap skating and then expecting someone else to pick up the tab.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/23/thomas-cook-repatriation-everything-need-know-operation-matterhorn/

Edited by willman
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10 minutes ago, willman said:

No.

But i don't have to be happy about bailing them out of what for many is their own mess?

I mean seriously who books flights for 19 people and a wedding reception in Vegas without insurance cover.

 

Insured or not they still need to be flown by a plane, they don't have their own wings. I think you are getting person insurance mixed up with ATOL insurance. Most insurance will get you back if you are already there but not much good if you haven't yet gone. Then there is the fee you have to stand to, the excess, before they pay out which varies. I have a good insurance policy from M&S as a premium customer but its better just to claim it all back from the credit card company as I'm covered by section 75 of the consumer credit act much better than my insurance policy.

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7 minutes ago, willman said:

Exactly - but it wasn't. It was 19 flights booked on debit cards( to a tune of 9k iirc) and a seperately booked and paid for Las Vegas wedding.

So who should help with funding that , if anyone.

People choose OPTIONAL insurance, the ATOL cover is not always included in flights only - i copied a piece from the Telegraph earlier stating exactly that.

Not made up but from a  reputable media outlet.

 

I keep saying i don't have an issue with how cheap it is or who  booked what - i have an issue with people cheap skating and then expecting someone else to pick up the tab.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/23/thomas-cook-repatriation-everything-need-know-operation-matterhorn/

willman I give up, you really don't understand do you. ATOL is totally different to the insurance we buy. You may have copied and pasted something but you don't understand the nuances of it all. For example, if I had bought my flight or package through a third party that alters how I'm covered with insurance and my credit card ie section 75 of the consumer credit act. Also booking connecting flights or multi destination holidays adds further complications. I know because I have done all these things over the last thirty five years.  Its not as straight forward as you think, its a minefield. 

 

I still don't know what you define as cheap skating, you are not making sense.  Putting a bespoke package together yourself is not cheap skating. You said they booked on debit cards not credit cards, big difference.  It sounds like the Las Vagas thing wasn't a package from what you say. I really wouldn't rely on what you read in the papers for information. I stopped reading them over thirty years ago, its an insult to peoples intelligence.  Get your information from someone like Simon Calder. 

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1 minute ago, Chez2 said:

Insured or not they still need to be flown by a plane, they don't have their own wings. I think you are getting person insurance mixed up with ATOL insurance. Most insurance will get you back if you are already there but not much good if you haven't yet gone. Then there is the fee you have to stand to, the excess, before they pay out which varies. I have a good insurance policy from M&S as a premium customer but its better just to claim it all back from the credit card company as I'm covered by section 75 of the consumer credit act much better than my insurance policy.

I'm not getting mixed up with anything, if you book a cheap flight outside ATOL protection  purely as a cost saving measure ,what are the chances you're going to pay private insurance for each passenger flying. Both of which offer protection to get you home should the the fit hit the shan. ( i know many book flights only so that they can build holidays,i've done it myself so it isn't always purely cost)

 

You keep using yourself as an example of the correct way to book a flight only holiday - they aren't the type of people moaning about not getting home to their original destinations at the right time etc etc. or losing 9k because they aren't insured, or having to pay for a wedding they can't get to.

Its all a mess and a debacle -  but i even insure UK holidays and insured my daughters UK wedding in the event of some disaster.

 

2 minutes ago, Chez2 said:

willman I give up, you really don't understand do you. ATOL is totally different to the insurance we buy. You may have copied and pasted something but you don't understand the nuances of it all. For example, if I had bought my flight or package through a third party that alters how I'm covered with insurance and my credit card ie section 75 of the consumer credit act. Also booking connecting flights or multi destination holidays adds further complications. I know because I have done all these things over the last thirty five years.  Its not as straight forward as you think, its a minefield. 

 

I still don't know what you define as cheap skating, you are not making sense.  Putting a bespoke package together yourself is not cheap skating. You said they booked on debit cards not credit cards, big difference.  It sounds like the Las Vagas thing wasn't a package from what you say. I really wouldn't rely on what you read in the papers for information. I stopped reading them over thirty years ago, its an insult to peoples intelligence.  Get your information from someone like Simon Calder. 

Thats funny he was the guy sat opposite them on the BBC sofa this morning - stating exactly what i've been saying since i came on here about repatriation for non ATOL customers specificaly flight only customers.

He even said that unless its section 75 credit card companies don't have to reimburse anyone.

Ok it my not be cheap skating but why would anyone select a flight only without any insurance of getting home ?

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24 minutes ago, willman said:

Exactly - but it wasn't. It was 19 flights booked on debit cards( to a tune of 9k iirc) and a seperately booked and paid for Las Vegas wedding.

So who should help with funding that , if anyone.

 

Usually one should have specialist insurance for a wedding, especially if it's an expensive do.  

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40 minutes ago, willman said:

Exactly - but it wasn't. It was 19 flights booked on debit cards( to a tune of 9k iirc) and a seperately booked and paid for Las Vegas wedding.

So who should help with funding that , if anyone.

 

No one is expecting, or saying help to fund these flights. You appear now to be shouting about something else and I'm simply not going to play this game with a poster I used to have some respect for.

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1 minute ago, Obelix said:

No one is expecting, or saying help to fund these flights. You appear now to be shouting about something else and I'm simply not going to play this game with a poster I used to have some respect for.

I'm not shouting about anything - i'm discussing a clearly very grey and very confused scenario which encompasses all aspects of the TC collapse and what part we should play in financing someone elses losses. To me it isnt as clear cut as just getting every one home,thats just one facet of the news reporting going on.

 

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32 minutes ago, willman said:

I'm not getting mixed up with anything, if you book a cheap flight outside ATOL protection  purely as a cost saving measure ,what are the chances you're going to pay private insurance for each passenger flying. Both of which offer protection to get you home should the the fit hit the shan. ( i know many book flights only so that they can build holidays,i've done it myself so it isn't always purely cost)

 

You keep using yourself as an example of the correct way to book a flight only holiday - they aren't the type of people moaning about not getting home to their original destinations at the right time etc etc. or losing 9k because they aren't insured, or having to pay for a wedding they can't get to.

Its all a mess and a debacle -  but i even insure UK holidays and insured my daughters UK wedding in the event of some disaster.

 

Thats funny he was the guy sat opposite them on the BBC sofa this morning - stating exactly what i've been saying since i came on here about repatriation for non ATOL customers specificaly flight only customers.

He even said that unless its section 75 credit card companies don't have to reimburse anyone.

Ok it my not be cheap skating but why would anyone select a flight only without any insurance of getting home ?

Look at what I have made bold in your text. You seem to be confused. The whole point of section 75 of the consumer credit act is it covers you in these cases. Why put "unless"?  

 

People not buying holiday insurance is often stupidity or oversight. Often they buy a policy without reading what it covers.

 

Edit -  you are mixed up. Again you are stating "buying a cheap flight outside ATOL".  Generally I'm paying  around £600 for two adults and one suitcase. At peak season this car rise to well over £700. Package deals include a suitcase each. Cases are usually £20 each way so another £40. Pick your seats is £10-£15 per person per flight. Then add meals if you want them.  These are short haul flights to Bulgaria.

 

You don't even understand insurance. You don't take it out per person unless you are travelling with friends not family.  Its often per party or family as a one off or annual / multi trip (with conditions eg short haul or long haul, number of trips per year). My policy covers me and spouse, any children and grandchildren under 18 travelling on the same booking. Its an annual policy. I don't have kids and grand kids but its  a general an umbrella policy offered by M&S. 

Edited by Chez2

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12 minutes ago, Chez2 said:

Look at what I have made bold in your text. You seem to be confused. The whole point of section 75 of the consumer credit act is it covers you in these cases. Why put "unless"?  

 

People not buying holiday insurance is often stupidity or oversight. Often they buy a policy without reading what it covers.

Because some people assumed during the discussion that they were all covered in all cases just by using a credit card and SImon made it clear they weren't. He obviously stated that debit card payments weren't covered either.

 

Edited by willman

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Assuming they are covered for what in what scenario? You seem to be moving the goal posts and muddying the discussion about money back, repatriation and insurance for anything else that could crop up during a holiday.

 

I have already outlined the specifics. 

23 minutes ago, willman said:

I'm not shouting about anything - i'm discussing a clearly very grey and very confused scenario which encompasses all aspects of the TC collapse and what part we should play in financing someone elses losses. To me it isnt as clear cut as just getting every one home,thats just one facet of the news reporting going on.

 

What losses would they have if they had their holiday and got home? 

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15 minutes ago, Chez2 said:

Look at what I have made bold in your text. You seem to be confused. The whole point of section 75 of the consumer credit act is it covers you in these cases. Why put "unless"?  

 

People not buying holiday insurance is often stupidity or oversight. Often they buy a policy without reading what it covers.

 

Edit -  you are mixed up. Again you are stating "buying a cheap flight outside ATOL".  Generally I'm paying  around £600 for two adults and one suitcase. At peak season this car rise to well over £700. Package deals include a suitcase each. Cases are usually £20 each way so another £40. Pick your seats is £10-£15 per person per flight. Then add meals if you want them.  These are short haul flights to Bulgaria.

 

You don't even understand insurance. You don't take it out per person unless you are travelling with friends not family.  Its often per party or family as a one off or annual / multi trip (with conditions eg short haul or long haul, number of trips per year). My policy covers me and spouse, any children and grandchildren under 18 travelling on the same booking. Its an annual policy. I don't have kids and grand kids but its  a general an umbrella policy offered by M&S. 

And no disrespect you keep assuming everyone is like you.

So is the £600 flight only cheaper than  a package holiday at the same time fully covered by ATOL? 

 

I've taken out individual policies as they were cheaper than combined ones forr the same cover. I've followed Simon Calders advise on that one. I've booked holiday insurance for UK breaks which have no relevance to foreign holidays but still different to what you have experienced.

 

I've recently booked a flight only to Schipol it isn't ATOL protected with FlyBe. However i'm insured to be repatriated should they go bust on my personal insurance cover and i can claim the flight costs back to my credit card under Section 75.

 

8 minutes ago, Chez2 said:

Assuming they are covered for what in what scenario? You seem to be moving the goal posts and muddying the discussion about money back, repatriation and insurance for anything else that could crop up during a holiday.

 

I have already outlined the specifics. 

What losses would they have if they had their holiday and got home? 

That wasn't my intention and i apologise unreservedly.

But the interviews i've seen with politicians included comments from people about reimbursement for not being dropped off at their departure airport(when repatriated) not getting back home in time for work etc etc. 

Personal insurance can be taken out to ensure you get home or get your money back if you don't go - sounds sensible to me.

 

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